px-s3000 PX-S3000 Strange Strings

[DJ_Maridao]

Hello guys!

 

I discovered something not very pleasant about the issue of equalization. Using the envelope knob I ended up with something scary ... For that I used the attack control (K1) at its highest possible value and adjusted the value of the release control (K2) to zero.

 

Playing note by note from note E4 to the octaves below it is possible to notice that the sound sample has a higher pitch mixed with the original sound. When a lower note is played, this sound is very noticeable and "spoils" the sound sample by mixing a frequency or timbre that most resembles an acoustic bass or something like that.

 

I don't know if other PX-S3000 users have noticed this. I will post a video with tests that I did on my DAW and I await your comment. The first four played have no release and no attack values.

 

P.S.: I'm very sorry about the hamming noise... I need to change my cables... 😕

 

 

 

Thanks!

[Jokeyman123]

OK-just my opinion-after listening very carefully-definitely not good-seems to get louder as amplitude of the string sample increases. In this frequency range-it sounds like "aliasing" of the sample but in the mid-range which I've never heard before usially aliasing is evident in the upper registers but its possible this could be genersted in the mid-range-do you hear this in the upper registers, or only in the middle-because this might mean that this middle range of sample waves is aliasing pretty heavily-i can think of no other way a sound like this could be audible with a string sample. And I am not convinced this has anything to do with eq-although the only cure for this might be-and our keyboards don't have this AFAIK-is a notch filter to specifically try to eliminate this band of frequencies-but looking at it smack in the middle of the wave-would probably notch out a significant portion of the string sound-might work. Definitely not normal sounding to my ears-never heard this artifact in any of my string samples.  Very nice app by the way. Can you upload a wav sample or mp3 of this-I'll look at it in Audacity and i think Audacity can notch out this artifact, i can at least tell you if that works.  Won't do you any good since this is a factory sound, right?

[Brad Saucier]

Here's my take on this, what it sounds like, and looks like to me. I suspect that strings tone is actually a carefully crafted layered blend of string samples and a synth wave, to add richness to the tone.  If this is the case, altering attack time can cause an unexpected change in the amp envelope of the synth layer.  If so, the abrupt change in the amp envelope isn't totally unexpected. 

 

As far as what sounds like aliasing, is that heard directly from the speakers of the keyboard or through headphones connected directly to the keyboard?  I suspect whatever audio interface you're using is causing the aliasing. 

[Jokeyman123]

Brad-so this sound which seems to be smack in the middle of the wav sample-might be a synth tone, part of the tone itself which because of the alteration the attack time is bringing it out so it is not blending? I was just guessing-and could only go by what I was hearing here. 

[DJ_Maridao]

7 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

OK-just my opinion-after listening very carefully-definitely not good-seems to get louder as amplitude of the string sample increases. In this frequency range-it sounds like "aliasing" of the sample but in the mid-range which I've never heard before usially aliasing is evident in the upper registers but its possible this could be genersted in the mid-range-do you hear this in the upper registers, or only in the middle-because this might mean that this middle range of sample waves is aliasing pretty heavily-i can think of no other way a sound like this could be audible with a string sample. And I am not convinced this has anything to do with eq-although the only cure for this might be-and our keyboards don't have this AFAIK-is a notch filter to specifically try to eliminate this band of frequencies-but looking at it smack in the middle of the wave-would probably notch out a significant portion of the string sound-might work. Definitely not normal sounding to my ears-never heard this artifact in any of my string samples.  Very nice app by the way. Can you upload a wav sample or mp3 of this-I'll look at it in Audacity and i think Audacity can notch out this artifact, i can at least tell you if that works.  Won't do you any good since this is a factory sound, right?

 

Yes, man! I can hear the terrible sound in some notes above the D4. I believe that the purpose maybe was make the mid range frequencies more "punch", or something like that but never in lower frequencies. I believe too that a string timbre could never have something like this for the simple fact that it looks horrible!

 

And we all already know that music, in the essence of the word, is pure feeling, where this feeling is slaughtered when "something" that shouldn't be part of a whole presents itself in this way. If U saw the movie "Red Dragon", at the very beginning, knows perfectly well what was the end of the poor flutist musician ... 

 

Jokes aside, I do not believe that a company that spends a very amount of money in a search of quality would agree with an act of this nature to make the timbre more "real" to the physical instrument. This is terrible because you cannot use the harmony of the dissonances involved in a musical piece with a string instrument to create something without having to be aware of this "synthesis of hell" in the middle of the timbre. I sent a message to Casio support asking about it and quoting this post, even knowing what the answer will be ...

Sending the file....

PSX3000 stereostrings sample.mp3

[DJ_Maridao]

6 hours ago, Brad Saucier said:

Here's my take on this, what it sounds like, and looks like to me. I suspect that strings tone is actually a carefully crafted layered blend of string samples and a synth wave, to add richness to the tone.  If this is the case, altering attack time can cause an unexpected change in the amp envelope of the synth layer.  If so, the abrupt change in the amp envelope isn't totally unexpected. 

 

As far as what sounds like aliasing, is that heard directly from the speakers of the keyboard or through headphones connected directly to the keyboard?  I suspect whatever audio interface you're using is causing the aliasing. 

 

HI!

About your question, in all cases. The problem is (I believe) the sample and the way it was built. Capturing the real sound, mixing, etc...

 

Thanks!

[DJ_Maridao]

7 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

Brad-so this sound which seems to be smack in the middle of the wav sample-might be a synth tone, part of the tone itself which because of the alteration the attack time is bringing it out so it is not blending? I was just guessing-and could only go by what I was hearing here. 

 

Yep! Indeed!

[DJ_Maridao]

19 minutes ago, DJ_Maridao said:

Won't do you any good since this is a factory sound, right?

 

I hope the "noise" that I (or we) making can be a motivation for them (Casio) to understand that since we can't import samples, at least they can improve the ones that already exist and allow us to update them.

Let's pray!

[DJ_Maridao]

2 minutes ago, Brad Saucier said:

Which preset tone did you alter?  Was it slow stereo strings?  or another preset?  

 

HI, Brad! The first one of the Strings section.  :StereoString

 

 

[Brad Saucier]

Did you try using slow stereo strings instead?  That tone is designed to do what you're looking for.  

[DJ_Maridao]

2 minutes ago, Brad Saucier said:

Did you try using slow stereo strings instead?  That tone is designed to do what you're looking for.  

My dear,

 

With this sample 007 (instrument = sample) the things is get worse... If I try to put zero attack (K1 all the left) the sample continues with a slow attack. One more time I believe that the problem is in the built way... Getting worse, if I try to reduce more and more the attack level I cannot hear the string sample... Just the f**** bass. Try it yourself and tell me... Assuming you have an PSX3000. 😭

[Brad Saucier]

I'll try to clarify what is happening some more.  What you are hearing (amp envelope change in the synth wave layer on the stereo strings tone) is simply a side effect of altering the attack time, which alters the amp envelope of the tone.  Attack time is not equally affecting all layers because that preset tone was not designed with a slow attack in mind.  Note that attack time editing is available for all preset tones, although it may not be useful on all tones. This is the nature of editing preset tones.  Some parameters are not effective on all tones equally, or have a limit to their effective range.   When selecting tones for editing, it is common practice to start with a tone that is similar to the desired result.  A slow stereo strings preset is available, which comes with a slow attack.  This is where I would start, rather than increase attack time on the first stereo strings tone.  Casio allows some pretty incredible editing of preset tones in the PX-S3000, while some manufacturers in this price range don't offer that option at all.  I'm not surprised that some interesting results can be found when digging in deep with editing.  The DSP system is also incredible, and can really create some wild sounds that you wouldn't expect.  It's pretty fun to see what the limits are.  😁

[DJ_Maridao]

4 minutes ago, Brad Saucier said:

I'll try to clarify what is happening some more.  What you are hearing (amp envelope change in the synth wave layer on the stereo strings tone) is simply a side effect of altering the attack time, which alters the amp envelope of the tone.  Attack time is not equally affecting all layers because that preset tone was not designed with a slow attack in mind.  Note that attack time editing is available for all preset tones, although it may not be useful on all tones. This is the nature of editing preset tones.  Some parameters are not effective on all tones equally, or have a limit to their effective range.   When selecting tones for editing, it is common practice to start with a tone that is similar to the desired result.  A slow stereo strings preset is available, which comes with a slow attack.  This is where I would start, rather than increase attack time on the first stereo strings tone.  Casio allows some pretty incredible editing of preset tones in the PX-S3000, while some manufacturers in this price range don't offer that option at all.  I'm not surprised that some interesting results can be found when digging in deep with editing.  The DSP system is also incredible, and can really create some wild sounds that you wouldn't expect.  It's pretty fun to see what the limits are.  😁

 

Ok Brad, but let's put aside the "corporation speech"... (Just joking.... 😇)

I understand that I bought a digital piano and I feel very glad about it. The changes! A new culture, a new experience! The real piano timbre, five octaves to seven, speed keys to heavy keys, the muscle re-education that involves this and so on... I understand all this in a first place, of course! 

 

But when the "device" goes to another horizon and brings to you so many other possibilities that you didn't have before the first thing you do is desperately jumps into that pool of colors and flavors never tasted before (poetic isn't it? 🙃) and because of this any "problem" that comes ahead makes you so frustrated...

In my case was something that stop me to achieve my "independence" in not having the need to bring with me a computer and all the necessary devices to have access a timbre or preset of some instrument in a plugin software that my own physical instrument should have. And in this particular case, the stringssssss!

Well, I don't have a clue if it was or was not your intention but you help me. While we was changing quotes here and there an I tried the 008 :SlowStrings1 and I discovered with some experimentations that the tone have no bass mixed with the tone sample! 😁 With the knobs settings (brilliance, filter, attack) and the 006 DSP with some adjustments in the 3 eq's I have achieve almost I need to make the string sound more real to me.

Thanks a lot! 🤝

- 


 

[DJ_Maridao]

Ok, guys!
 

My strings was complete, at last! Waiting for approval in my profile to share the .rbk file, ok?

 

Thank U ALL!!!!!

[mike71]

I think that for experimenting on sounds the PX-5S and PX560M are more interesting because the hex layers that give you a deeper control on the sound, such flexibility come at the price of complexity. Normal PCM tones are a sort of preset with fewer parameters to tweak that is a limitation but makes easier to tweak it. These values are relative to the underlying preset. With hex layers you could start from scratch, but for tone so is better to start with a similar tone