RBK Mixer BETA TESTERS WANTED (CT-X700 CT-X800 CDP-S350 Layer Balance Fix)

[Chandler Holloway]

 

I went ahead and uploaded some preliminary utility banks that will allow folks to try out the panning and MIDI control workarounds we've discussed thus far (sorry to ping you four times for stuff you already know about, haha). I wanted to get these out ahead of the demo videos I'm going to (hopefully) release by the end of this coming week that will show these applications in action, at which point I'll be sharing it in the main CT-X and Casio Digital Pianos user groups on Facebook for more visibility. Should get folks hyped up for the 1.0 release of the software itself, plus it'll be a good shortcut for folks who just want to get these features without bothering to make custom files themselves in the program.

 

I do still plan to conduct those panning tests and update the Forced Stereo Tones list in each of those .zip packages with my findings. The nice thing about hosting files in the downloads section here is that it's easy to swap in an updated version of a file without having to make a whole new entry for it, so if anything else comes to light, I'll just update the files accordingly (and post here to keep you guys in the loop as well).

[vbdx66]

22 hours ago, mrmr9494 said:

@ChandlerHolloway  , here's v1.3 of the Python including a function isMonoCompatible() which returns a value True if all 3 patches are compatible with mono panning (i.e. all of them don't appear on your list). I know you suggested a warning be raised, but I'm not sure if a Python warning could interact badly with the Flask framework -- it could easily result in a crash. So I think for now it's best if the warning is raised within Flask rather than within the Python, based on the return value of that function. I've also made a couple of small changes as suggested earlier by casio_style.

 

As for what is causing the problems with mono panning, it's still quite a mystery. Here are a few observations I've made on the CT-X3000:

 

- It's often different between left & right. GM ORGAN 3 can pan full left (or nearly full left), but full right isn't possible.

- Many are related to chorus. For example, ACCORDION FRENCH 2 when I set Chorus Send to 0 the problem goes away (same with the SYNTH BASS patches). You say that chorus effects are mono-compatible on the CT-X700 but that certainly isn't the case on CT-X3000.

- An interesting one is SAX SECTION 1. There the panning changes abruptly between neighbouring notes on the keyboard. Casio has definitely made a mistake here in the sound design, which raises a question: are all the examples you've found mistakes?

As regards Sax Section 1, has it occurred to you that the panning might have been set to mimic the positioning of the various saxophones in a real saxophone quartet, for instance? I doubt that Casio would have done such a big mistake in sound design, I think they did this on purpose.

[vbdx66]

22 hours ago, mrmr9494 said:

@ChandlerHolloway  , here's v1.3 of the Python including a function isMonoCompatible() which returns a value True if all 3 patches are compatible with mono panning (i.e. all of them don't appear on your list). I know you suggested a warning be raised, but I'm not sure if a Python warning could interact badly with the Flask framework -- it could easily result in a crash. So I think for now it's best if the warning is raised within Flask rather than within the Python, based on the return value of that function. I've also made a couple of small changes as suggested earlier by casio_style.

 

As for what is causing the problems with mono panning, it's still quite a mystery. Here are a few observations I've made on the CT-X3000:

 

- It's often different between left & right. GM ORGAN 3 can pan full left (or nearly full left), but full right isn't possible.

- Many are related to chorus. For example, ACCORDION FRENCH 2 when I set Chorus Send to 0 the problem goes away (same with the SYNTH BASS patches). You say that chorus effects are mono-compatible on the CT-X700 but that certainly isn't the case on CT-X3000.

- An interesting one is SAX SECTION 1. There the panning changes abruptly between neighbouring notes on the keyboard. Casio has definitely made a mistake here in the sound design, which raises a question: are all the examples you've found mistakes?

As regards Sax Section 1, has it occurred to you that the panning might have been set to mimic the positioning of the various saxophones in a real saxophone quartet, for instance? I doubt that Casio would have done such a big mistake in sound design, I think they did this on purpose.

[Jokeyman123]

I wish you all had done some of this before i sold my CDP-these are all very interesting developments. One aspect to the panning problem-I am not a Python programmer, can't help with that-but I know some of the raw samples in my other Casios (560 and i think the XW-P1) that make up the stereo tones-are specifically panned left or right-to make up  a stereo piano-to duplicate a left-to-right soundstage for a piano. I don't recall the organ tones doing this but i'd have to re-check. In other words-these samples are already programmed as left or right-you must assemble a group of left and right panned samples when designing your own stereo piano to get all the notes across the keyboard, and this is independent of any DSPs, it is how he samples have been pre-mapped. If any of you have access to the 560 or XW-P1-check this-look through the sample tables-the samples used when creating your own tones or hex layers-and you will see labels L and R in the list of raw piano samples, and if you monitor these, you will hear these samples already assigned to the left or right sides of the keyboard. I don't know if this info will help, if the CDPs are using the same sample tables or architecture as the 560 and XW, but it is possible, and might be why you are having trouble trying to assign values to get a panning effect, or defeating one. 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Jokeyman123

[Chandler Holloway]

The demo videos for the utility banks are both up on my personal YouTube channel:

 

 

 

The program itself is nearing the final stretch; we expect to have something ready for public release within the next two weeks. Looking forward to it!

[Chandler Holloway]

After weeks of testing and tweaking, we are nearing completion on the v1.0 release of RBK Mixer! At present, only Windows and Mac builds are available, but Linux will be ready by the time of release.

 

I'm looking for beta testers who will help me "road test" the program. It's working fine on my Windows machine and the dev's Mac, but we want to have a larger sample size of users before we put out v1.0, so if you'd like to help please respond here and I'll PM you with instructions.

 

Please include the following information if you want to help test:

 

1. What model of Casio do you have (supported models are CT-X700, CT-X800, CDP-S350 and CT-X870IN)?
2. Is your computer a Windows or Mac machine, and what OS are you running (i.e. Windows 10, Windows Vista, Mac Big Sur etc)?
3. How do you plan to transfer RBK Files back and forth to your machine (Data Manager software or USB Flash Drive transfer)?

[mrmr9494]

I'd definitely like to try out the new program and see what you've done with it. My setup doesn't quite match the target so not sure if I can really count as a "beta tester". Will give it a go though. My setup:

1. CT-X3000

2. Linux (any idea if this is possible? Don't make any changes for Linux, I'll fiddle around to see if it's possible to get it running)

3. Data Manager (-ish... equivalent software).

[Chandler Holloway]

Hi Mike! I've actually never tested it on an 8-Registration board like the CT-X3000 so I'll be interested to see if it all works out. I know the underlying Python library can work on any of the CT-X models though, so I don't see why it wouldn't work.

 

You're welcome to pull down the source and put together a Linux build yourself. Main issue is that the server will need a Linux binary.

 

We just added support for that Mono Compatible/Forced Stereo flag you implemented a while back. Fingers crossed that it all works right!

[Qw Erty]

Hey Chandler. Great Appreciation for Work!

Here is my setup :

1. CT-X870IN

2. Windows

3. Via USB

 I do not know how to deal with github and all. so if it is required please list me the steps to get it loaded onto my machine & keyboard.

[Chandler Holloway]

RBK Mixer is now ready for public release, future updates and discussion will take place in the hub thread over in the general section of the forums.

 

Thanks to everyone who assisted with beta testing!

[Shaunaflynn]

On 6/28/2021 at 10:27 AM, Chandler Holloway said:

 

Thanks for getting the change in the script so quickly, much appreciated. I've passed along your comments re: Python and flask to my GUI guy, appreciate the heads up.

 

As for mono panning:

 

1) Very interesting. I did all the initial tests with every tone panned hard left. I'll repeat the tests with everything panned hard right, and note any differences with a third revision of the list.

 

2) I only tested chorus effects on a few tones, I'll do a more exhaustive test and report back. There's no way that I know of to set a Chorus send via registration (as we've already confirmed in our tests thus far), so setting Chorus to zero would be a moot point for CT-X700/X800 owners anyway.

 

Out of curiosity, did you try French Accordion 2 with a specific chorus chosen in the Mixer menu, or did you leave it on the default "Tone" setting? Try it with a manually specified Chorus and see if there's any difference.

 

After that, switch the Chorus setting back to "Tone" and see if the panning behavior changes when you assign French Accordion 2 to U2 and put a DSP tone on U1 (set the U1 volume to zero so you can hear better).

 

3) I'm not certain that they're all mistakes; some of the tones that have forced stereo characteristics make a lot of sense, like Grand Piano wide, Chamber Strings, and the forced drum set panning.

 

Sax Section's behavior is weird, but given that it's trying to emulate an ensemble of musicians with directional wind instruments, having forced stereo width to reflect that doesn't seem entirely reasonable. Massive differences in panning between neighboring keys is definitely a headscratcher, no doubt about that.

 

Ultimately, this individual outputs workaround is just a nice bonus for certain "power users" who like to maximize the flexibility of their keyboard and experiment with outboard effects. I think the vast majority of CT-X users (especially the ones who opted for the more expensive X3000/X5000) bought the board with the intention of using it entirely "within the box", so to speak, so they're likely going to be more than happy with all the wonderful DSP tones built in. This series has been out for nearly three years now, and in that time, not one complaint has been made about the strange panning behavior (at least not one that I've ever seen). 

 

Having to disable the built in Reverb and Delay just to get individual outputs to work is probably going to be too much to ask of most folks from the jump. However, it's still really cool, and I for one love to push every instrument as far as it can possibly go. I'm excited to demonstrate all the new functionality we've made possible here, I think it will inspire a lot more experimentation on these entry-level CT-X models. The CDP-S350 already punches way above its weight in terms of price point and feature set, adding layer balance in is going to make it a real killer piece that approaches the threshold of a real stage piano.

It's great to hear you're diving into the mono panning tests and exploring the chorus effects further. 
Excited to see how this enhances the CT-X experience and inspires more creativity, especially for power users. 

[Shaunaflynn]

On 6/28/2021 at 10:27 AM, Chandler Holloway said:

 

Thanks for getting the change in the script so quickly, much appreciated. I've passed along your comments re: Python and flask to my GUI guy, appreciate the heads up.

 

As for mono panning:

 

1) Very interesting. I did all the initial tests with every tone panned hard left. I'll repeat the tests with everything panned hard right, and note any differences with a third revision of the list.

 

2) I only tested chorus effects on a few tones, I'll do a more exhaustive test and report back. There's no way that I know of to set a Chorus send via registration (as we've already confirmed in our tests thus far), so setting Chorus to zero would be a moot point for CT-X700/X800 owners anyway.

 

Out of curiosity, did you try French Accordion 2 with a specific chorus chosen in the Mixer menu, or did you leave it on the default "Tone" setting? Try it with a manually specified Chorus and see if there's any difference.

 

After that, switch the Chorus setting back to "Tone" and see if the panning behavior changes when you assign French Accordion 2 to U2 and put a DSP tone on U1 (set the U1 volume to zero so you can hear better).

 

3) I'm not certain that they're all mistakes; some of the tones that have forced stereo characteristics make a lot of sense, like Grand Piano wide, Chamber Strings, and the forced drum set panning.

 

Sax Section's behavior is weird, but given that it's trying to emulate an ensemble of musicians with directional wind instruments, having forced stereo width to reflect that doesn't seem entirely reasonable. Massive differences in panning between neighboring keys is definitely a headscratcher, no doubt about that.

 

Ultimately, this individual outputs workaround is just a nice bonus for certain "power users" who like to maximize the flexibility of their keyboard and experiment with outboard effects. I think the vast majority of CT-X users (especially the ones who opted for the more expensive X3000/X5000) bought the board with the intention of using it entirely "within the box", so to speak, so they're likely going to be more than happy with all the wonderful DSP tones built in. This series has been out for nearly three years now, and in that time, not one complaint has been made about the strange panning behavior (at least not one that I've ever seen). 

 

Having to disable the built in Reverb and Delay just to get individual outputs to work is probably going to be too much to ask of most folks from the jump. However, it's still really cool, and I for one love to push every instrument as far as it can possibly go. I'm excited to demonstrate all the new functionality we've made possible here, I think it will inspire a lot more experimentation on these entry-level CT-X models. The CDP-S350 already punches way above its weight in terms of price point and feature set, adding layer balance in is going to make it a real killer piece that approaches the threshold of a real stage piano.

I've been experimenting with the French Accordion 2, and initially, I left it on the default "Tone" setting.

 

I'll definitely give it a shot with a manually specified Chorus as you suggested and see if there's any noticeable difference.