Midi clock sync between newer and older Casios

[Jokeyman123]

I had recently discovered and posted the results here regarding tempo sync between various midi keyboards and modules-was pleased to find that even without midi clock, all my tested Casio keys were able to keep very accurate sync on multiple tracks with seperate keyboard sequencers/auto arranger functions-at least as far as I could hear-I did not test down to the "tick" beat to see if it kept exactly accurate time. I tried this with the PX560 being the primary multi-track playback source, then played back auto-arranger tracks played by a Yamaha QY-100, a Roland PMA-5, the XW-P1 (which does have midi clock but did not connect this to anything midi) and my PX350.  Very useful!

 

My post here-I do not have any of the newer Casios, the CDP's, the PX-S series, the CTX or even the newest CTS keys and i was wondering if anybody has tried or would be willing to try this experiment if you are able. Combining for example-an CTS rhythm with another older Casio or other brand that does not have midi clock-to see if the newest Casios are also this accurate-can be synced to each other just by setting the tempos manually-if a CTX playing tracks will synchronize with for example with a CTS100/200/300 or some other Casio like the PX-S series. This might not seem so important-but if you are are multi-track fanatic like me (I started in 1972 with the first TEAC 3340 simul-sync recorder which I still have and it works) this ability to sync different keyboards/modules together without midi clock is significant, IMHO. I believe the older WK/CTK series might benefit from this experiment too, as even though some of those had midi clock (I think) would be very cool to be able to sync say a WK3000 or even earlier with one of the newest Casios. any takers? I know, I have too much time on my hands-but then, did Les Paul when he invented "flanging"? You didn't know that did you? Also almost electrocuted himself with his experiments. I keep that in mind too!

[rsaintjohn]

When you say “older”, how old? I’ve got, for instance, a Casiotone 405 (or 410V) sitting next to a new PX-S3000, and an XW-P1 and a CZ-230s in the next room. Are you just curious how steady the clock of those older models are and if newer models can be set to the same tempo, and how well they stay in sync over time?

[Chas]

A few years back I had a 7 minute live XW-P1 "performance" recorded direct to an audio wave file. I was using the step sequencer and arpeggiator feature, both synced to the XW's internal clock. No sync with any other device or DAW.

 

Some years later I decided that I needed to beef up the kick and snare sounds. I thought I was going to have to rerecord the track from scratch and multi-track it, but out of interest I loaded the recorded WAV file into my DAW (Acoustica Mixcraft Pro 8), lined up the first beat to the grid then adjusted the project tempo until it matched my WAV track's tempo.

 

Amazingly, tested with the DAW's global metronome, my WAV track kept perfect time with the project over the 7 minute duration of the track. I was then able to overlay an additional kick and snare beat in my DAW on top of the original WAV file and everything kept in perfect sync.

 

I haven't yet tried anything similar with my CT-S300 (that doesn't allow MIDI click sync). When I get a chance I'll see how its internal rhythms hold up against my DAW's metronome.

 

On the flip side, when I record my videos I simultaneously record the audio separately with my DAW, with my Canon HF and cellphones capturing the video. I then import all of these into my video editor and line then up using the clapperboard technique (actually just clapping my hands visually and aurally). Unfortunately, the internal clock sync of all my video devices will start to drift from the separately recorded audio tracks after about 5 minutes. It takes a number of edits and realigning in a project to keep everything in sync. 

 

Conclusion: my XW's have more precise internal clock timing with my DAW than any of my video capture devices.

[Jokeyman123]

Chas-I haven't done any video/audio syncing recently-that is very telling. I remember experimenting with an old video/audio program years ago that synced these together-and it worked pretty well, I can't find it. And yes, rsaintjohn, that is a very large part of what i'm asking-since the newer CTS series, and the CDP/CTX-all do not have midi clock-how some of these might sync with an older Casios. could open up some more creative channels-if for example one could take an old 410 as you mention-and record some of the vintage Casio sounds with their auto-arrange functions-even the older, simpler rhythms with many of the newer equipment, synced only with their tempo settings.  Only one CZ had a sequencer-i think it was the CZ-1 which I owned for awhile, or was it the 5000? And the CZ's had some multitracking capability, but i think these were designed to be used with the SZ-1 sequence recorder, and RZ-1 drum sequencer.

 

If i can sync an old Yamaha or Roland with a newer Casio-which definitely worked, how about a multi-synced toy Casio, or older CT/MV auto-arranger-with a more modern CTK/WK/CTX/CTS or Privia?  The oldest Casio I own now is the PX575 (no clock there either)-which worked in this scenario also, with auto-arranger rhythms and the built-in song recorder. I did not try this with Casio audio recorders-or any other audio file, assuming the audio might be less accurate than a digital midi or Casio format song/arranger rhythm, but i could be wrong. I can verify-the PX560 audio recorder, when played simultaneously with a song recorder (midi) song-stays in sync, and I do not think these 2 recorders are digitally or electronically synced, but again i could be wrong there too.  This is all pretty dependent by the way, as Chas mentioned, on being able to start your sequences exactly right-no room for errors with physical/manual triggering! and I've done this from the middle of a multi-track too, so there doesn't seem to be any timing drift as a track has been playing-like a DJ, one can kick in one multi-track performance while another is already happening, as long as you catch the beat exactly-and can create some nice "flanging' if you don't!  i did all this as i was seriously disappointed in Casio's leaving midi clock out of many of their keys-since I have alot of classic midi stuff which does, and this has all been a very pleasant surprise-no midi clock needed-just a trigger finger for pushing those buttons! 

[rsaintjohn]

Combining my CT-410V and CT-S400 (when it arrives) is high on my to do list. And the CT-S1, but it ain’t got no rhythm lol.  But with the PX-S3000 already sitting next to the CT-405, I guess I could actually do this sooner than later. 3000 has only been here a few days so I’m getting to know my way around it.

 

Re: the CZs, the 5000 and the 230S both had MIDI DIN, sequencing and could be set to internal or external clock. And, as you mentioned, the RZ-1 drum machine and the SZ-1 sequencer, much the same as the 5000, intended to tie a bunch of CZs together. CZ-1 didn’t have the sequencer. I never found much use for the SZ-1 as it loops poorly. 
 

I’m in the process of setting up an “all CZ” table in a back room with the 1, 101, 5000, 230S, RZ and SZ with the plan of finally creating a piece(s) that is all CZ to the max.  But I bet I could also take a stab at seeing how a selection of 40 Years of Casio Gears (there’s the title!) get along as well. One of my most popular and effective videos a few years back was the CT-405 and a Korg Minilogue. Old and new combined made a really interesting sonic combination. 

[Brad Saucier]

What is Casio's other big business?  Why that's timepieces of course.  It only makes sense that when a Casio keyboard says 120 beats per minute, it's spot on.  

[Jokeyman123]

Yeah, rsaintjohn you get this!!!! blending some of these less "pristine" but more earthy sounds synced to a PX-S3000-opens up new possibilities for tortured and beautiful sounds. I'm a little deranged possibly (too many weddings gigs in my youth) but I get a huge bit of gass when I play 3 different auto-arrangements synced together. Musical mayhem....but then that's what all this midi stuff was supposed to be for in the first place. I remember when I first started teaching, i arranged for the product specilist for Korg to come to our school (heady times back when this was all starting) and he brought an entire ensemble of the cutting edge Korg midi keyboards-must have been early 80's I think-and demonstrated how to put together a huge orchestral arrangement-on the spot in our auditorium, including some sampler-i can't recall which it was-and a separate sequence recorder. The kids were amazed, so was I and kicked me into overdrive with the technology. wish I could remember his name, he was a bit of a celebrity/performer then, and the newest stuff was still pretty pricey-but getting closer to what a poor teacher like me could afford. I'm pretty sure it was before the CZs, but not by much-and why i ended up with 3 CZ's, all I could afford then. my memory is sketchy but i remember how amazing all this sounded, and this is going way back. 

[Jokeyman123]

Of course. I should know-I kept my 2 classic Casio timepieces, the infrared remote control watch and the blood pressure monitor-which I blew out when I was teaching.. Now if only i could get my hands, arms and feet into sync......