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Posted (edited)

I like the Casio CT-S, but it's not a full size keyboard and I often make mistakes. I hope Casio will update to a full size keyboard (12key=165mm) .

 

1,This video gives full-size keyboard data at 5:45.

 

2,roland go is a true full size keyboard, check out this video

Edited by sunshine
Posted
18 hours ago, sunshine said:

I like the Casio CT-S, but it's not a full size keyboard and I often make mistakes. I hope Casio will update to a full size keyboard (12key=165mm) .

 

 

When I measure an octave on my CT-S1, it is 162 to 163 mm depending on the octave. The statement that a full size octave = exactly 165 mm is incorrect. There is some acceptable variation from one manufacturer to the next. If you go to two different grand pianos, you will find some variation too. 2 or 3 mm per octave should not cause frequent mistakes. I think that the texture on the keys, the height and depth of the keys, and the key action are all much more likely to impact the number of mistakes compared to a very small difference in width. Lots of information on this topic available here: https://www.mrpianotoday.com/are-piano-keys-same-size/

  • Like 3
Posted (edited)
On 3/26/2024 at 8:55 AM, Jamietopol said:

When I measure an octave on my CT-S1, it is 162 to 163 mm depending on the octave. The statement that a full size octave = exactly 165 mm is incorrect. There is some acceptable variation from one manufacturer to the next. If you go to two different grand pianos, you will find some variation too. 2 or 3 mm per octave should not cause frequent mistakes. I think that the texture on the keys, the height and depth of the keys, and the key action are all much more likely to impact the number of mistakes compared to a very small difference in width. Lots of information on this topic available here: https://www.mrpianotoday.com/are-piano-keys-same-size/

"The standard dimensions of piano keys are generally consistent across most acoustic pianos. The white keys have an approximate length of 6.5 inches (16.5 cm)". 

I have checked Yamaha and Roland digital pianos and they are the same size as the acoustic piano (12key=165mm). Is the Casio digital piano the same as the CTS or the same as the acoustic piano?

Edited by sunshine
Posted (edited)
On 3/26/2024 at 8:15 AM, Brad Saucier said:

Since the 80s, Casio portable keyboards with full size keys have been the same size as the CT-S1.  Nothing has changed in regards to that.  This doesn't include mini keyboard models of course.

I have checked Yamaha and Roland digital pianos and they are the same size as the acoustic piano (12key=165mm). Is the Casio digital piano the same as the CTS or the same as the acoustic piano?

Edited by sunshine
Posted

Have you actually played a real acoustic piano? I have. I own one. I don't go between it and my CT-S1 (nor any of my other Casio keyboards) and notice any difference in the size of the keys. IMNSHO, you are wasting your time with this. Either the CT-S1 works for you or it does not. I have not heard a single other person complain about the key size of the CT-S series, and in fact, most people are blown away about the combination of portability and sound quality. I have a friend who busked across the U.S. with her CT-S1 and loves it. She also has an acoustic grand piano at home.

  • Like 2
Posted

Among my large collection of keyboards and synths, I have a modern Casiotone CT-S1000V and also a CT-S300. I also have a 1980 CT-201, the first ever Casio keyboard model. My other half, who is a professional classically trained pianist and accompanist,  has a 1974 K. Kawai Grand Piano at home and a Casio Privia portable electric piano (with hammer action  and weighted keys) for when a portable piano is needed. We have switched between all of these keyboards and never once has it been felt that the Casiotones weren't full sized keys. My partner has also played my Casios/ Casiotones on my recordings (when I needed a (much) better/ more skilled keyboard player), and never had an issue with their key size.

 

Sunshine, the quoted part in your post says:

 

"The standard dimensions of piano keys are generally consistent across most acoustic pianos. The white keys have an approximate length of 6.5 inches (16.5 cm)". 

 

Note the emphasis on "generally consistent", which indicates some minor variation is acceptable. In other words, the difference of 1 - 2mm in width over an octave is insignificant and would fall within accepted tolerances.

 

I can guarantee you that in a blind test, even an experienced pianist would not be able to notice such a small difference in key width. What they WOULD notice is the key texture and key action/ feel. Those are far more important considerations than a 1mm difference in octave width.

 

To be honest, you are attempting to highlight a problem that simply does not exist.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Posted

 Hi there Sunshine. The CT-S1 is a quality instrument with a great keybed for the price and, with respect, I think you are seeing ghosts with regard key size. Casio have done a good job of cutting away the fat and concentrating on squeezing the important things into it.

 

 The soundset, on the whole, is fantastic for the money. A few questionable choices but the meat and potatoes of where it is aimed at are surprisingly good matched with a keyboard better than most simple MIDI controllers costing similar money. They've even thrown in a decent GM soundset with very little fanfare.

 

 Beyond the 'buttons' and main sounds available, the interface can appear a little arcane but I personally like the lack of clutter. It mamkes it 'feel' like a true instrument if that makes any sense? The most used functions, via the kehboard, soon become second nature after dipping into the manual a few times an printing off the reference pages from the manual.

 

 If you can check one out I'd highly recommend you do so. If it only had the piano and electric piano sounds in I would still have thought it was a bargain. I almost paid slightly less for a MIDI controller and the keyboard wasn't a patch on the one in the CT-S1.

 

 Regards, FIAW.

  • Like 2
Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Joe Muscara said:

Have you actually played a real acoustic piano? I have. I own one. I don't go between it and my CT-S1 (nor any of my other Casio keyboards) and notice any difference in the size of the keys. IMNSHO, you are wasting your time with this. Either the CT-S1 works for you or it does not. I have not heard a single other person complain about the key size of the CT-S series, and in fact, most people are blown away about the combination of portability and sound quality. I have a friend who busked across the U.S. with her CT-S1 and loves it. She also has an acoustic grand piano at home.

Well, I'm a beginner, and everyone's adaptability is different. I like CTS very much, and I will work hard to improve my skills.

I checked Yamaha and Roland digital pianos, and they are almost the same size as the acoustic piano (12key≈165mm).

My question  is the casio digital piano similar in size to the acoustic piano or similar to the CTS?

(My English is not good, I am using translation software. If I offend everyone, please forgive me. Thank you everyone .)

Edited by sunshine
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Chas said:

Among my large collection of keyboards and synths, I have a modern Casiotone CT-S1000V and also a CT-S300. I also have a 1980 CT-201, the first ever Casio keyboard model. My other half, who is a professional classically trained pianist and accompanist,  has a 1974 K. Kawai Grand Piano at home and a Casio Privia portable electric piano (with hammer action  and weighted keys) for when a portable piano is needed. We have switched between all of these keyboards and never once has it been felt that the Casiotones weren't full sized keys. My partner has also played my Casios/ Casiotones on my recordings (when I needed a (much) better/ more skilled keyboard player), and never had an issue with their key size.

 

Sunshine, the quoted part in your post says:

 

"The standard dimensions of piano keys are generally consistent across most acoustic pianos. The white keys have an approximate length of 6.5 inches (16.5 cm)". 

 

Note the emphasis on "generally consistent", which indicates some minor variation is acceptable. In other words, the difference of 1 - 2mm in width over an octave is insignificant and would fall within accepted tolerances.

 

I can guarantee you that in a blind test, even an experienced pianist would not be able to notice such a small difference in key width. What they WOULD notice is the key texture and key action/ feel. Those are far more important considerations than a 1mm difference in octave width.

 

To be honest, you are attempting to highlight a problem that simply does not exist.

 

 

 

 

Well, I'm a beginner, and everyone's adaptability is different. I like CTS very much, and I will work hard to improve my skills.

I checked Yamaha and Roland digital pianos, and they are almost the same size as the acoustic piano (12key≈165mm).

My question  is the casio digital piano similar in size to the acoustic piano or similar to the CTS?

(My English is not good, I am using translation software. If I offend everyone, please forgive me. Thank you everyone.)

Edited by sunshine
Posted (edited)

If it helps, here's a picture of my CT-S1000V alongside a 1974 K. Kawai acoustic Grand Piano (8 or 9 feet long, I forget the size).

 

20240401_175937.thumb.jpg.4a7f33230f42c90aec588099514ad1d7.jpg

 

 

 

With the left hand end of the pictured CT-S keyboard aligned with the Kawai, at the right hand end, this is the difference:

 

 

 

20240401_174718.thumb.jpg.34f2b9c4c5a0cee6bc2420acd093c352.jpg

 

 

Over five octaves, the overall difference of the keyboard width between a Kawai acoustic Grand Piano and a Casiotone CT-S keyboard is about 5mm/ 0.5 centimeter. That works out as a difference of  1mm per octave.

 

That really is such a tiny difference that without seeing the CT-S keyboard next to an acoustic piano keyboard, I really don't think most pianists would notice.

At the end of the day, best thing is to go and try a CT-S and see if it feels comfortable to you. Also bear in mind that the CT-S doesn't have hammer action or weighted keys that an acoustic piano would have. Looking at the Roland Go piano specifications, those don't have those features either. Like the CT-S1 and some other CT-S models, the Roland has velocity sensitive keys that would put it more into "synth action" rather than genuine piano hammer action weighted keys. If you want hammer action and weighted keys, you'll need to look at dedicated electric pianos that cost a lot more than a CT-S1. Casio have a whole line of highly rated pianos , such as their Privia, CDP and Celviano range for that purpose.

 

Edited by Chas
  • Like 3
Posted
On 4/3/2024 at 1:12 PM, Chas said:

If it helps, here's a picture of my CT-S1000V alongside a 1974 K. Kawai acoustic Grand Piano (8 or 9 feet long, I forget the size).

 

20240401_175937.thumb.jpg.4a7f33230f42c90aec588099514ad1d7.jpg

 

 

 

With the left hand end of the pictured CT-S keyboard aligned with the Kawai, at the right hand end, this is the difference:

 

 

 

20240401_174718.thumb.jpg.34f2b9c4c5a0cee6bc2420acd093c352.jpg

 

 

Over five octaves, the overall difference of the keyboard width between a Kawai acoustic Grand Piano and a Casiotone CT-S keyboard is about 5mm/ 0.5 centimeter. That works out as a difference of  1mm per octave.

 

That really is such a tiny difference that without seeing the CT-S keyboard next to an acoustic piano keyboard, I really don't think most pianists would notice.

At the end of the day, best thing is to go and try a CT-S and see if it feels comfortable to you. Also bear in mind that the CT-S doesn't have hammer action or weighted keys that an acoustic piano would have. Looking at the Roland Go piano specifications, those don't have those features either. Like the CT-S1 and some other CT-S models, the Roland has velocity sensitive keys that would put it more into "synth action" rather than genuine piano hammer action weighted keys. If you want hammer action and weighted keys, you'll need to look at dedicated electric pianos that cost a lot more than a CT-S1. Casio have a whole line of highly rated pianos , such as their Privia, CDP and Celviano range for that purpose.

 

I bought cts before, but returned it because the white and black keys of cts1 are smaller than my yamaha p125, thank you for your answer

 

Posted

Quite frankly, if someone has a problem with a key size difference of ~1mm (1/32 of an inch) per octave the problem isn't with the keyboard size.

  • Like 2
  • 5 weeks later...
Posted
On 4/3/2024 at 1:12 PM, Chas said:

If it helps, here's a picture of my CT-S1000V alongside a 1974 K. Kawai acoustic Grand Piano (8 or 9 feet long, I forget the size).

 

20240401_175937.thumb.jpg.4a7f33230f42c90aec588099514ad1d7.jpg

 

 

 

With the left hand end of the pictured CT-S keyboard aligned with the Kawai, at the right hand end, this is the difference:

 

 

 

20240401_174718.thumb.jpg.34f2b9c4c5a0cee6bc2420acd093c352.jpg

 

 

Over five octaves, the overall difference of the keyboard width between a Kawai acoustic Grand Piano and a Casiotone CT-S keyboard is about 5mm/ 0.5 centimeter. That works out as a difference of  1mm per octave.

 

That really is such a tiny difference that without seeing the CT-S keyboard next to an acoustic piano keyboard, I really don't think most pianists would notice.

At the end of the day, best thing is to go and try a CT-S and see if it feels comfortable to you. Also bear in mind that the CT-S doesn't have hammer action or weighted keys that an acoustic piano would have. Looking at the Roland Go piano specifications, those don't have those features either. Like the CT-S1 and some other CT-S models, the Roland has velocity sensitive keys that would put it more into "synth action" rather than genuine piano hammer action weighted keys. If you want hammer action and weighted keys, you'll need to look at dedicated electric pianos that cost a lot more than a CT-S1. Casio have a whole line of highly rated pianos , such as their Privia, CDP and Celviano range for that purpose.

 

The actual octave difference is 5MM

Posted
On 4/5/2024 at 7:40 PM, Link said:

Quite frankly, if someone has a problem with a key size difference of ~1mm (1/32 of an inch) per octave the problem isn't with the keyboard size.

The actual octave difference is 5MM

Posted
1 hour ago, sunshine said:

The actual octave difference is 5MM

 

How did you arrive at that conclusion?  His measurements (quoted below) do not support your statement.

 

1 hour ago, sunshine said:

Over five octaves, the overall difference of the keyboard width between a Kawai acoustic Grand Piano and a Casiotone CT-S keyboard is about 5mm

 

  • Like 1
Posted
On 5/4/2024 at 2:30 PM, sunshine said:

The actual octave difference is 5MM

 

 Across the whole keybed. I make that less than 1mm, which is ~1/32 of an inch, .... per octave. 

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  • 4 weeks later...
Posted (edited)
On 5/4/2024 at 2:30 PM, sunshine said:

The actual octave difference is 5MM

 

No, it is not. I clearly showed you the difference in my picture above of the K. Kawai Grand Piano and CT-S1000V keyboards. Over FIVE octaves the overall difference is 5mm, making it a difference of 1mm per octave.

 

No-one else appears to share your opinion/ concern, and by far the majority of owners are very content with their CT-S1. Including many professional reviews of it. So I really don't understand why you are so hung up on this issue, nor what your ultimate objective is. If the CT-S1 is not for you, that is fine. Just don't buy it and find another keyboard that you are happy with. 

Edited by Chas
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  • Thanks 1
  • 7 months later...
Posted
On 3/27/2024 at 5:49 AM, sunshine said:

I checked Yamaha and Roland digital pianos, and they are almost the same size as the acoustic piano (12key≈165mm).

My question  is the casio digital piano similar in size to the acoustic piano or similar to the CTS?

 

My PX5S keys are just slightly wider than CT-S1. The difference over 5 octaves looks to be maybe about an eighth of an inch. 

 

Possibly worth noting...Yamaha NON-hammer action boards are noticeably smaller than those on the Casio CTS (more than a half-inch difference over the 5-octave span). AFAIK, this has been true on every "full-size" non-hammer Yamaha, going back at least as far as the DX7.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

Hmmm...If I am working on more difficult advanced piano repertoire, I don't do that on any non-weighted 61, 76 or 88 key instrument. To the original poster here-if you are serious about your technique-and from playing live in many situations-I would think you will need to learn to play just about any size or weight of keyboard depending on what you intend to do. Comparing the Yamaha P-125 to the CT-S is not a valid comparison technically speaking. 

 

If I were in a professional studio or similar environment-I would find a variety of keyboards at my disposal, including (in a better studio) at least an upright acoustic piano, and a variety of workstations-weighted and non-weighted. And possibly even an authentic full setup for a Hammond B-3 or similar, which I am not sure, but if those keys are a bit narrower than on a grand or weighted digital, I never noticed-and my technique would have to change, quite a bit.

 

If I had developed my technique initially from a spring-action keyboard to a true acoustic grand or digital, I probably would have crippled myself. I spent hours years ago initially playing Fender Rhodes and Wurlitzers too-and these were not spring action keys, these were weighted. The Rhodes was alot more sluggish than the grands we had at our disposal as students. The Wurlitzers were a little better, but still needed weighted technique to play.

 

Doing the opposite is much easier, and as long as I go back to my practicing exercises on the weighted, doesn't seem to affect my piano technique too much. So unless the width of the keys is drastically different-IMO this seems to be a silly argument. I manage to play reasonably simple passages even on mini keys, but then I am not trying to play a Chopin Etude on it!  Many of Bach's pieces were written for harpsichord or clavichord-again non-weighted in the modern definition of weighted, and he didn't have 88 keys either. Just 10 fingers on each hand (I think). 

 

So to this poster-get both-a good weighted digital-or acoustic if you have the facilities-and practice your technique on that, not a CT-S1 or anything else that isn't weighted. Transitioning then to a CT-S will be easy, IMO. I do this all the time, between the XW-P1, an Alesis Ion, Yamaha SY77 (non-weighted) and the Casio PX-560 and Fatar TP-40s, Korg SP-500 (weighted 88 key). I miss playing on a true grand sometimes-but when I sit down at one, the feel is surprisingly close-actually the SP-500 (Korg's RH-II graded) feels a little heavier than the grands I get a chance to play, the PX-560 is quite close. I haven't played a CT-S-but if it feels even remotely close to the Hammond's or other non-weighted keys I play, I'd be happy with it-and of course depending on what I needed to play. I use a Ferrofish B-4000 organ module and practice organ runs with this connected either to my weighted or non-weighted keys, to adapt my technique to both.

 

The only time where I might feel a bit of a stumble-would be playing tenths with either hand. Even then, the width of the keys would have to be pretty different to affect my technique. and since i can't play tenths without a major hand operation, I never noticed.:banghead::banghead:

 

And if I were an producer or A/R-I could care less what size or weight your keys are-here's your score, can you play it? if not, next....:waaah:

 

disclaimer-no animals were harmed during the writing of this post-but i did have to take my cat off the table a few times.

Edited by Jokeyman123
  • Like 1
Posted

Having to append this already ridiculously long post (sick in the house, not much else I can do for awhile....)there are so many virtuostic organ players who never touched a weighted keyboard-developed fantastic technique on double 44-key organ manuals-with actions very similar to may of the Casio non-weighted-this fact justifies working out on a CT-S1 or similar, again depending on your style of playing desired, even if you never touch a weighted key board. I had read that-seriously-musician prisoners in concentration camps during Wordl War II, made their own instrument simulations out of sticks, pieces of wood-piano playing musicians actually traced keyboards in the dirt-just to be able to remember where the key positions were, and even staged impromptu simulated performances when they could get away with it-PM me if you want to know where I got this information from. Was documented by someone who survived one, and saw it happen. I think of this often when I feel inclined to fuss about whatever "imperfection" I may perceive in whatever I am doing. So play away on the CT-S and be astounded at the tools we now have to create meaningful music-or in my case, maybe not so meaningful.....:hitt::boing:

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