Drum Patterns

[SonnyDaye]

Very simple. 

1.  Edit the Stage Setting.

2.  Scroll down to the COMMON page. 

3.  Phrase is the second item on the list just below Tempo.

You do have to have the drums on Zone 1.  

It SOUNDED like it was going to be easy, but I followed your instructions and then had to wing it to carry out the rest of the process.

The first thing I find is that playing any keys on the PX plays the various drum sound across the board (which I DON'T want to do) - so, I mute zone 1 - that fixes it BUT, now slider one does NOT control the volume of the drum pattern anymore like it did BEFORE I muted the zone. I'm probably missing something simple but I can't figure out just what. How ever it can be programmed to control the volume of the drum volume in real time I am willing to do! Thanks for any help with this.

[Mike Martin]

Sorry, let me double check....

[Mike Martin]

Yep, I forgot a step.

 

Edit the Stage Setting, 

Zone Edit

Mixer Edit

Scroll down and select Key Range High, then turn Knob 2 all the way to the left setting its value to [C-]

 

By doing this, the drum sounds are now accessible by the Common Phrase but not playable by the keyboard.

 

So when you select your Stage Setting, just press the Phrase button and you'll see the correct phrase is ready to go.  Press Start.

[pianoralf]

I would say the phrase option within a StageSetup was made for playing with the main sound which is configured for Zone 1.

Last week  I had configured an arpeggio for Zone 1 with keyrange from C- to A0.

This arpeggio is configured as NOTE[FIX] and will play 032 Drum Loop 2 with the Hold function continuously.

Zone 2 will start ab Bb0. So there is no conflict between the zones.

This is the 3rd Method to get playing drums on the PX-5S.

 

@Sunny did you solve your connection problem now? I found out, that when I connect within my Sequencer program to the CASIO USB MIDI IN and OUT the DATA Edior which runs at the same time also will prompt "no connetion". So check if you have a second application running which takes the USB MIDI exclusive.

 

Did you try my Drum-Demosong ? Is it running at your keyboard? I guess you have to store phrase to Number 104, because in the song I assigned the phrase which was on position 104 at that time. I don't think it will look by name, if you store the phrase on a different position. Otherwise you must change the phrasenumber in the song to that divergent position.

Note: If you play the Drum Demosong the Phrasebutton must be "off" (no light).

 

@Mike: Most StageSettings are programmed with "normal" sounds on Zone1. So almost each StageSetup has to be changed if you want to use a playing drum loop AND you want to use the Phrase function within the StageSetup like you have proposed.

Is it possible to move the Configuration for Zone1 to a higher, If that higher Zone also is used we have to move all  the parameters to the next one. In some cases Zone 1 - Zone 3 are used, so we have to move Zone 1 to Zone 4 and then configure Zone 1 for Drums and edit the keyrange you described above. Each StageSetup assigns a Phrase and the tempo. This could be much complex, and if you change the StageSetup during playing it will  assign the pattern and tempo of the other StageSetup. So please talk to the Casiopeople it they could make a better solution.

With the Songsequencer we have an alternative which allows to change the Stagesetup during playing the drums without stopping them.

The StageSetup tempo of a stage setup should not change the tempo of a running sequencer. It can also be detected by the lighting Phrase button. It "Phrase" is not "on" it does not change the Phrase, but unfortunately it changes the tempo, which was assigned for the StageSetting's Phrase.

This should be an request for a future firmware update. Thank you.

Update: This behaviour can be prevented by the "Stage Setup Filter". If you go to"Sys Settings, General, Stage Set Filter" you will find the parameter "Tempo". Switch it to "On". This prevents the tempo been changed if you select a different stage setup.

[SonnyDaye]

Ralf: I haven't tried to solve the connection problem because everything I need to do, so far, can be done without being connected.

Mike: Thank you! I now successfully have a Stage Setup with the drum pattern completely controllable (tempo and volume). Loving my PX-5S!!

Now to find different drum pattern midi files that are SIMPLE, BASIC repetetive patterns. Seems like most out there are programmed either by non-musicians, show-offs or drummers who never learned the art of simplicity. All I want is bass drum on 1 & 3 and hi-hat on 2 & 4 (boom-chick) along with the appropriate drums and cymbals depending on the type of rhythm.

Maybe some day I'll master how to easily create my own.

Sonny

[SonnyDaye]

Mike,

Just when I thought I was "there", I just ran into another obstacle to overcome.

I'm creating 2 and 4 bar simple drum patterns and I have "Loop" turned on. I just noticed that even though it is looped, as soon as it gets past the end of the 2 or 4 bar phrase it does loop and plays from the beginning, BUT.....the volume goes back to (I'm assuming) the volume the Phrase was set at when I saved the Stage Setting. This is a major obstacle since the whole idea of the setup is to be able to control the volume of the drum pattern (by Slder 1) IN REAL TIME! It's of no use if the volume is going to revert to another level every 2 or 4 bars. And....I CAN'T guess ahead of time (when I'm saving the Stage Setting) what the relative volume of drums I'll need at any particular moment on a live gig (because of acoustics, crowd noise etc.). Is there a way to solve this other than creating a 30 minute phrase?

Hmmm....now I just discovered that this behavior ONLY occurs with ONE of my Phrases. A couple others stay at whatever volume I set it for at any given moment. Does this clue help figure out what it is about that phrase that causes that behavior?

Edited May 31, 2013 by SonnyDaye

[Mike Martin]

Are you certain that the MIDI file which you converted to a phrase didn't have a volume command?

[SonnyDaye]

Are you certain that the MIDI file which you converted to a phrase didn't have a volume command?

That's what I was thinking. I have no idea....don't remember where I got it. I'm wondering if I can find the original midi file and convert only the 3rd and 4th bar, would that get around the problem. Anyone know if a volume command is always placed at the beginning of the "song"?

UPDATE!

Problem solved. You were right Mike! I tried 4 different Midi Editors before I could find an Event Editor that would work for me and I deleted all the Volume commands.

Thanks!

Edited June 1, 2013 by SonnyDaye

[pianoralf]

It is not necessary to use an external  event editior.

Within the DataEdtior for the PX-5S they implemented an "Event Filter" i guess exactly for those problems.

Near the field where you selected channel 10 to filter the drum track there is a pull down menu.

Scroll down an select CC007 Volume and press the ">>" Button.  If you notice more problems you should add other filters.

Then drag the file to convert again, and then use the "Transfer" option to send it to the PX-5S.

Ralf

[SonnyDaye]

Cool! Thanks Ralf! I've noticed the Event Filter, but it never occurred to me that it would include a Volume filter - probably because I never realized there would be a Volume command in a midi file. Midi has always been my nemesis.

Thanks!

[pianoralf]

Update to the problem that the tempo of a song changes if you select a different Stage Setup. I found out today that this behaviour can be prevented by the "Stage Setup Filter". If you go to"Sys Settings, General, Stage Set Filter" you will find the parameter "Tempo". Switch it to "On". This prevents the tempo been changed if you select a different stage setup.

[jaspeter]

I'm trying to wrestle a little more control over drum phrases during live performance.  Pianoralf mentioned the phrase - variation - fill-in - chorus approach that I'm going for.  Unfortunately, it's exceedingly clunky to try to do that from the panel buttons while performing.  I did find that the two pedals can be used to start/stop phrases, which is cool, but I still need more - especially since I need all the phrases to be in "drum space" (zone 1).  There are tantalizing hints about SysEx messages that appear to allow you to select a phrase, but I'm not well-versed in that and the MIDI Implementation Manual is a bit foggy on the "Hows", although it has quite a bit of information about it.  Also, I suspect it may not be possible to configure my external controller to send the necessary SysEx message, anyway.  It doesn't appear that there is a CC that I can send a "phrase select" or "phrase increment/decrement", which would be a near-ideal solution.

So far, I'm leaning toward creating a SongSequencer track with several simultaneous phrases, one each for basic, variation, fill-in, etc.  Then, hopefully, I can use an external controller to unmute the song track-by-track to get the variations I'm looking for.  This has a few drawbacks, assuming it works at all.  Particularly, timing is difficult to correct should the band get off by a beat or the singer come in early/late.  Also, there's only onboard space for 10 songs in the sequencer, if I understand that correctly.

Anyone have any other suggestions?

[pianoralf]

It is a geat idea to use both methods to have playing drums.

You don't need an external controller, and to send SysEx is too complex.

I figured out a method to toggle 2 drumpatterns via Pedal2.

I use a song for the normal beat. This is in Slot 9 (I call This SongPhrase: Use my demosong to configure Drums for channel 10 independent from stagesetups)

I use a stage setup with drums on Zone1  ( I call this StagePhrase) 

and a configuration for pedal 2 in the StageSetting

This Pedal2 must have 2 configurations:

1 Start/Stop for the song which has 99 bars

2 Start/Stop for the phrase, which has 1 bar 

Use Toggle for Pedal2 !

Then select Song and Song 9

Then press Phrase and select the phrase you want (this can be stored in the stagesetup)

Now press the left pedal-- the phrase and the song will start.

After one bar the phrase will stop, and the song will continue

 

After that, we can toggle between the two drum patterns with the second pedal, to use the StagePhrase as a fill in 

 

 

A variant is to use the Arpeggio on/off. But this only works if you press a key exactly on the beginning of the bar to keep the beat.

 

 

We only have 10 Songs. But it is easy to change the rhythm: Press song edit enter and then + - keys to change the drumpatterns.

 

Remember: Each Song is a Stagesetup for Zones 5-12. This is for tracks 1-8 which use MIDI Channels 5-12. So you can use the Mixer inside the Song to select the sounds for the Zones.

I have set a drum setup to channel 10. This is why Songs are independent from StageSettings, which use Zone 1-4.

 

On weekend I will post a package with song, stagsetup and phrase to demonstrate it.

 

Ralf

[jaspeter]

It is a geat idea to use both methods to have playing drums.

You don't need an external controller, and to send SysEx is too complex.

...

 

Ralf

 

That approach makes sense, I'll have to give it a shot!  It may be sufficient to use only two patterns, especially since I have the lowest octave mapped to drums that I can use to add a little more "spontaneous flair" to the variations.

One more question about your method - what is your preferred way to end the song?  I'm guessing either volume fade, or hit the Song Stop button on the panel?

Thanks!  I look forward to seeing your setup.

 

Jason

 

P.S.  What I would really love to be able to do is to map many phrase triggers to the drum triggers on the keyboard.  There are already groups set up in the editor that will silence a note when another is hit in that same group, which is handy to turn off another phrase when beginning a new one.  If it had the ability to trigger WAVs in the same way, I'd be over the moon!

[jaspeter]

That approach makes sense, I'll have to give it a shot!  It may be sufficient to use only two patterns, especially since I have the lowest octave mapped to drums that I can use to add a little more "spontaneous flair" to the variations.

One more question about your method - what is your preferred way to end the song?  I'm guessing either volume fade, or hit the Song Stop button on the panel?

Thanks!  I look forward to seeing your setup.

 

Jason

 

P.S.  What I would really love to be able to do is to map many phrase triggers to the drum triggers on the keyboard.  There are already groups set up in the editor that will silence a note when another is hit in that same group, which is handy to turn off another phrase when beginning a new one.  If it had the ability to trigger WAVs in the same way, I'd be over the moon!

 

As I save phrases and assign them to stage settings, I'm finding that you still need to enter Phrase Mode on the panel in order to be able to use the phrase, even if you have the pedal set to start/stop phrase.  I know what you're thinking, what's an extra button push?  Well, it's an extra thing to forget for the next tune.  I'd like the phrases to be ready to go from a single stage setting button push.  Perhaps the PX-5S can do this after all, but I'm just doing it wrong?  It's still a very capable machine, and I am far from mastering it!

[jaspeter]

I just found out how to get percussion onto a different zone than Zone 1.  However, I can't figure out how to get a phrase playing on anything but Zone 1.  I see in the editor that each zone should have it's own phrase/arpeggio, but I don't know how to trigger it.  Am I overlooking something completely simple?  UPDATE:  I figured that one out.  It's just any keypress once the Arpeggio button is turned on.  I had the wrong idea about what it was supposed to do.

As for how I get the percussion on, say, Zone 4, here are my rough instructions.  Mike may have a good reason this should not be done, so you might want to wait to try this until I post that my PX-5S has exploded (it hasn't so far) or Mike posts that doing the following may cause your PX-5S to explode.

1.  Plug one end of a cable into MIDI OUT and the other into MIDI IN.
2.  Disable local control through the SYS SETTINGS - MIDI menu on the keyboard.

3.  Enable Zone 4 in the Stage Settings - Zone tab of the editor and scroll down to the bottom to enable MIDI OUT Channel 10 (for this example) in that zone.
4.  Go to the main MIXER tab in the editor and disable Part 4.  Enable Part 10 and choose your drum set.  Make sure the volume is at a good level.

I am currently having some funky modulation artifacts in the percussion channel this way.  I don't believe I was having that earlier, so I need to redo this and make sure I didn't miss something.  UPDATE:  It appears there might have been a conflict between the drum set I was using and the one already assigned in that stage setting to zone 1.  A fresh start with a different stage setting fixed that problem.

[pianoralf]

Amazing solution!

This is a good workarround.

You are transmitting MIDI Data from the phrase which is assigned to Zone 4.

This comes to the MIDI in and uses Channel 10 to play the drums.

Now we are able to add a looping drum one Zone4 to existing sounds which normally use Zone1. 

I was able to reproduce that.  
I think the problem is MIDI connection. This could have side effects on other sounds. These must be edited before usage.

Ralf

[Brad Saucier]

jaspeter,  I got those same funky modulation artifacts when using the Song Sequencer to play drums on ch.10.   I had an edited drum set assigned to channel 10.   I discovered that user defined drum sets exhibited the problem anywhere outside of zone 1.  A preset drum set does not exhibit those issues.   This may be why the engineers decided to restrict drums to zone 1.   If you can get an edited user drum set to play nice on channel 10 let us know.

[jaspeter]

I think you hit it on the head, Brad.  There isn't any particular extra power needed for the drum sounds out of the box... until you start tweaking the setups, filters, etc.  For canned loops, though, it may be a sufficient solution if you really need that extra zone for a hex layer.  I am beginning to discover the usefulness of the individual filters and drum setups, though, so I may have to just suck it up and keep playing percussion on Zone 1.  I'll keep poking at it, though!

[Brad Saucier]

I think Zones 1 and 2 are running through a different processor or something.  It would explain a lot of things. 

[loz2754]

Hello

New user here. And proud owner! for all of five days.

These are some great ideas for programming a drum track, which is just exactly what I am trying to do.

I know this is an old topic, but I just discovered another problem with using the song sequencer. I just started to program the drums in for the song Clocks by Coldplay, which is about 110 bars long in 4/4 time. The maximum number of bars you can enter for the song sequencer is 99. So I ran out of bars before the end of the song .

Any ideas for a a solution?

[Brad Saucier]

Try cramming as much into the phrase loops as possible.  As I recall that's a fairly repetitive song.  Create the entire chord progression in a single phrase or 2.  It appears that not many people are using the song sequencer on the PX-5s.  You're breaking new ground. 

[SonnyDaye]

Just thinking....

Looking for any and all ways to get Drum Patterns into The PX.

So....Is there an easy way to get Drum Patterns off of a Drum Machine or a Backing Module like the Roland BK-7m and into the PX? Hmmm, and thinking of all the Casio boards I have - how about those as sources for a multitude of basic drum patterns. I figure there must be a way, but hoping there's an EASY way.

[Brad Saucier]

Midi out of said drum machine/keyboard and record it as a midi sequence then covert it to phrase using the data editor.

[Choppin]

loz2754

 

The song sequencer is made up of patterns (phrases) stored in individual slots in up to 8 different tracks.  Each slot can be repeated 99 times, and there can be up to 999 slots per track.  That means if you wanted to you could put 1 phrase per measure of your 110 bar piece, into 110 different slots.  However, if there are actually only a few actual drum patterns, then you can repeat phrases as you need to in different slots.  The short answer is there is plenty of space to add 110 different patterns if need be.  But, like Brad was saying, if you can create a phrase(s) that has as much drum track info (up to 8 k of midi info per phrase) as you can cram in, it will save you time entering patterns into the song sequencer.