Can we change the volume of the Layered tones in the Casio CTX keyboards?

[jibin.jacob3]

I'm asking this question because, I saw this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5d4mrEyOWYM.

This person claims that Casio has removed this (mixer) function from the CTX series. Is this true?

 

(I have a Casio CTK6300IN and it has a mixer function, where I can change the volume of the layered tones, individually, and can even save these changes into the registration bank.)

[Mike Martin]

It is not available in the CT-X700/800.  You can adjust everything in the CT-X3000/5000

[Chandler Holloway]

Correct me if I'm wrong Mike, but according to the CT-X700/800's MIDI Implementation documentation, it seems like it might be possible to change the volume of the Upper1, Upper2, and Lower layers via MIDI CC commands on the appropriate channels. MIDI Channel 1 is Upper1, Channel 2 is Upper2, and Channel 3 is the Lower part, so if you sent values for CC 7 (Volume) on those channels respectively, would the volumes of those respective parts change to reflect those values? And once you have the balance you want for those layers all dialed in, could you save a Registration with those settings and recall the custom balance whenever you want? I only have an X3000 at home, otherwise I would boot up MIDI-OX and test it myself. Maybe @Brad Saucier can weigh in.

 

I also know that the format for User Registrations is uniform across all of the CT-X models. If you were to dial in a patch with custom volumes on the CT-X3000, save it as a User Registration, and then import it to an X700/X800, would the lower models still preserve the custom balance of the imported X3000 registration? As long as your registration doesn't have a Lower 2 part or use any of the tones or effects types that are X3000/5000 exclusive, you shouldn't encounter any compatibility issues, right?

[jibin.jacob3]

Thanks for the clarification!

[Brad Saucier]

Chandler, that's a good idea. However, it doesn't appear to be possible. The CTX series has a 48 channel sound source comprised of three 16-channel ports.  MIDI input on the CTX series is assigned to "Port C", the song solo parts of the mixer.  "Port A" would be the upper lower tones, so they can not be addressed via MIDI IN.  

[Chandler Holloway]

Ah, I see. Should've taken a closer look at the ports. I would think it might be possible to change those values with SysEx commands for the Port A parts, but according to the documentation, it doesn't seem as if any of the Port A parameters have designated MIDI receive channels so that may not be an option either.

 

Any luck with importing pre-balanced Registrations from an X3000/5000? It's not a perfect solution, but that's the last thing I can think of that might work.

[Chandler Holloway]

@Brad Saucier

 

I threw together this sampler of registrations with various X3000/5000 exclusive parameters dialed in (see attachment). Could you try importing these to an X700/X800 with CT-X Data Manager and see if any of them preserve the settings, or if only some settings are preserved? Again, I would test myself but I only have an X3000 at home so I'm not much help here.

 

MIXTST.RBK

Reg 1-1: The control in this experiment. U1 is Stage Piano, U2 is Mellow Strings and L1 is Acoustic Bass1. All three are at max volume in the mixer and have whatever default effects send values they have when first enabled.

Reg 1-2: Volume changes. All the same instruments and layers as 1-1, but the strings are significantly quieter than the piano and the bass should be barely audible.

Reg 1-3: Individual effects sends per part. U1 is Stage Piano with full chorus, but no reverb. L1 is Acoustic Bass1 with full reverb and no chorus. All Delay is set to Tone and with a send of 0 for all parts, as the X700 doesn't appear to have its own separate delay section.

Reg 1-4: Panning and per-part tuning. U1 and U2 are the same Stage Piano, but U1 is panned hard right and U2 is panned hard left. U2 is also fine-tuned up by 30, so if you play the same note on both sides of the split, they should sound very out of tune.

Regs 1-5 through 1-8 are as blank as I can make them. There doesn't appear to be any way to delete individual registrations from a bank, so I just overwrote them with the default Stage Piano set-up you get whenever you first turn the keyboard on.

 

I'd think that the files should transfer just fine, seeing as how they're in the same .RBK format, but who knows how it'll actually handle the settings once they're imported. I don't even know that all the instruments will match correctly when translated over, but at the very least Stage Piano shouldn't be switched to anything unexpected because it's always the first tone in the instrument list across all models.

 

[Brad Saucier]

Sorry Chandler, I have a CT-X5000.  I'm pretty sure the file types are not compatible between them, but a confirmation would be nice.  

[Chandler Holloway]

I got my CT-X700 in today and tried loading up my test bank of CT-X3000 registrations; they didn't transfer. Although the file format is the same (.RBK), the X700 can only take registrations from other X700s or the X800.

 

Tried CC commands, but as Brad pointed out, those CC commands control the auto-accompaniment, MIDI-In and song recorder voices, not the layers and splits. If you're playing the CT-X700 from an external source via MIDI, you can adjust the volumes just fine, and the values set by those CC commands will be preserved if you save them as a registration after dialing it all in. If you really like the AiX tones but you don't want to upgrade to an X3000, you could use the X700/X800 as a tone module. I'd be interested to see how easy it would be to do a rackmount conversion on an X700 because the construction seems to be fairly modular and compartmentalized. I need mine for videos and testing, though, so I won't be taking it apart for many moons to come.

 

A bit of a bummer, but you have to make some sacrifices to keep the price point and low and prevent the models from competing with one another. One tip I can give to X700/X800 users with regard to this balance issue is that if the two voices you're trying to balance are far apart in pitch range, you can use the Bass+ or Treble+ Equalizer presets to accentuate the lower or higher voice for improved balance. The Equalizer setting can be saved to a registration for quick switching if need be.

[skyy38]

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 6:32 AM, Mike Martin said:

It is not available in the CT-X700/800.  You can adjust everything in the CT-X3000/5000

 

In my much-used WK-1350, when I layered tones, it all sounded "50/50" between the two, at least to me, so I'm glad there wasn't an adjustment for that, except for the mixer function, after recording, where you could NOT record layered or split tones but you could still "mix" between the two.
Being able to fine adjust the layered tones volumes would have been just ONE more excuse, for MOST of you to waste time on editing, rather than getting any serious work done.

[vbdx66]

I dont agree at all. Adjusting the relative volumes of the Upper1, Upper2 and Lower1 (Aka Main, Layer or Dual and Split) voices is a very basic feature of any electronic keyboard even for home usage.

 

A very common usage of the layer voices is layering a piano voice with some strings. If the strings are too loud they will hide the piano.

 

I don't want all the complexity of the CT-X3000/5000 but I do wish volume adjustment of the various voices on a nice and easy keyboard such as the CT-X700/800. Actually, this is the one flaw preventing me from buying the CT-X800 so far.

 

I had the Yamaha PSR E433 for a long time and I was adjusting the relative volumes of the various voices very frequently.

Edited November 17, 2018 by vbdx66
Typos

[2112]

OK, Ladies & Gentlemen!

 

Here's my workaround for this problem with low-end CT-X machines. It is the same workaround that I use for similar problems with low-end PSR-E machines.

 

1) Set your instrument to MIDI->Local->Off

2) Use any external application that allows you to loopback the MIDI messages. You can also send other MIDI messages that are impossible to produce using the front panel of your instrument. Since I use Linux, making the loopback is trivial:

$ aconnect 20 20

Maybe the users of the payware operating systems will be willing to share their favorite choices for the application that can do MIDI the loopback.

 

Although the low-end Yamaha PSR-E363 do have mixer functions for the main/dual/split voices (U1/U2/L in Casio-ese) it doesn't have the similar functionality for the accompaniment styles, and vast majority of their styles are too sonically complex for the beginning student. At least Casio had thought of this problem and provided the Lesson->Plain_Accompaniment function available from the front panel.

 

Basically, both Casio and Yamaha nowadays play from the same business songbook of market segmentation. Only the lowest-end models provide the lesson/educational aids. Even the smallest step up in the functionality is matched by removal of the teaching functionality.

 

Compare CT-X{7,8}00 with CT-X{3,5}000; the list of differences aligns quite well with the differences between PSR-{E363,EW300} and PSR-{E463,EW410}. In the past Yamaha used to offer the Educational Suite in their PSE-E4x3 models, but nowadays it is replaced with the enhanced functionality for DJ-ing. I didn't research the available teaching aids in the older Casio's product families.

 

I'm just hoping that none of the manufacturers with come with the business idea of actually disabling that functionality in the tone generation chips in the future updates.

Edited November 17, 2018 by 2112
corrected model numbers

[japet4]

have somebody done this.?

[juanmiguel431]

The answer of the main question is here:
 

 

[Majek Skateboards]

While there is no issue with me live on jamming and layers, I will consult my producer friend who can take the OS, tweak it and probably get the layers fixed.

 

the problem is when we tweak sounds to get different ones, they are only able to be played back if you always have your MacBook Pro with you.

 

For some, it’s natural to always boot up your MacBook or PC laptop when you turn your keyboard on, but for others this is a bulky fix.

 

 

......

 

However, due to the complexity of keyboards today, my two gigging keyboard friends always use at least an iPad as the central OS and use the patches sometimes but always the effects and there is no booting up the keyboard, any keyboard, unless the iPad, Mac, PC, or iOS-Android is booted up.

 

They are inseparable.

 

I will report back when I get my CT-X700 next week and have the producer see what he can do. Tweaked sounds to his liking always goes on the jams or recordings but I don’t think he could operationally change the Casio iOS and save it to the computer.

[Chandler Holloway]

Layer and split volume balance has been added to the CT-X700, CT-X800 and CT-X870IN via my new software utility, RBK Mixer. Please check the hub thread over in the general section of the forums for more information.

 

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Chandler Holloway

[Francisco Ruiz]

The topic is getting kinda old, but I guess this is the place to report a recent discovery. You can have a heck more control than just tweaking the part volumes if you use loopback and MIDI surface software, for a grand total budget of $1.99. I used an iPad, but these two programs also run on a regular iPhone:

1. MidiWrench, free in the App Store. This is just to do the loopback, so I guess any program that achieves this will be fine. https://apps.apple.com/ca/app/midi-wrench/id589243566

2. WIDI - MIDI Studio, $1.99 in the App Store after upgrade. This is the customizable control surface. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/widi-midi-studio/id1420223879

 

Process:

1. Hook up your keyboard with the iPad via USB cable & adaptor. Turn keyboard and iPad on. Turn off Local MIDI on the keyboard.

2. Load MidiWrench. Set preferences so the input is echoed as output. This is the loopback.

 

 

3. Load WIDI, connect to the Local Input, which is the keyboard, and have fun adding sliders for different parameters that can be accessed via CC messages. For each slider, tell the program which channel (1 = initial layer, 2 = second layer, 3 = split keyboard), and which CC message (for instance, 7 for volume, 10 for pan, etc.). A complete list of CC controllers for the CT-X700 can be found here: https://support.casio.com/storage/en/manual/pdf/EN/008/CT-X700-midi-imple_EN.pdf In the picture below, you can see my setup with top row controlling the base layer, middle row controlling the second layer, bottom row controlling the left-hand split layer.

 

 

4. Play to your heart's content. Tweak everything in real time as if you actually had all those sliders on your keyboard. You can make anything sound like a violin by giving it a rather long Attack time. You can actually put the iPad to sleep when you are not changing things, in order to save battery.

 

I set up three rows of 12 sliders each, able to control in real time anything from channel volume to tremolo delay for each of the three layers. Latency is insignificant. The pictures are from a similar post on my blog at https://prgomez.com/more-control-for-your-keyboard/#more-1829.

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Francisco Ruiz