PX560 saxophone growl emulation

[Jokeyman123]

I am working on a cover version of Johnny and the Hurricanes "Red River Rock"- almost ready to upload here-trying to do it without quantizing and all playing in real time-pretty challenging, but I wonder if anybody can tip me on how to program in that great "growl" sound onto one of the PX560 saxes-I guessing maybe a very fast vibrato with a choppy wav, but then I'm having trouble retaining effects when get the tone though the midi recorder/mixer. The Hammond sound (he used some kind of Hammond) needs some overdrive and/or distortion which I can program in, but then I lose the effect when recording with the midi recorder. I recall the PX560 only allows one effect at a time, but i thought if the effect is built into the tone-so many Casio tones have effects seemingly as part of the tone, the effect would be retained-why is it getting lost when recording with the midi recorder?

[Brad Saucier]

It's a limitation of the effects system.  Wether the tone is preset with DSP or a user tone with DSP, the PX-560 only has 2 DSP effects inserts it can use at once.  1 is reserved for performance parts and the other for rhythms or MIDI recorder.  If you have already used up the effects resources, the remaining tones won't have any DSP effect.  As far as growl sax, try using ring modulator DSP.  Set the frequency as low as possible.  You could also set up a hex layer tone where the growl is on a layer that only comes in at high velocity.  

[Jokeyman123]

So if I want to retain an effect with a tone for the midi recorder-in one of the mixer tracks-which is the other effect or effects I need to disable-that is what is confusing me, or can't that be done. I realize the mixer allows for send adjustments for chorus and reverb, but I guess these remain active in the mixer regardless of how I raise or lower the send effect, and are these considered one of the DSP effects? I guess what I am asking is-in a roundabout way sorry-how do I retain a specific effect for a specific tone for recording  with the mixer/midi recorder? Or is this impossible since another tone with an "embedded" or built-in factory DSP will over-ride whatever other "programmed" effect I might want to use. Specifically-I'd like to bring in a sax growl-as you suggested with ring modulator-into an arrangement I've worked up that consists of drums, bass, 2 organ tones layered, a guitar backing and sax. Alternatively, I've tried to add distortion to one of the organ patches, but it does not come through when I record. I'd be happy to get a t least one of these DSP effects applied to one of the tones-either the distortion or the sax growl. I can always dub in a tone played live with a digital multi-track recorder with the effect I need in addition to recording the PX560 multi-track, but as a challenge, I'm trying to do all processing "in house" with just the PX560. Except for the guitar solo.....Thanks Brad.

[Brad Saucier]

Edit a tone, select the DSP effect algorithm you want and tweak any DSP parameters you want.  Write the changes to become a user tone. This tone can be used just like a preset tone.  It also has the same effect limitations as a preset tone.  Hopefully I can explain some of this below.....

 

Casio has set up the effects system just like an old school analog audio mixer, with channel inserts and submix busses (effect sends).  If you've ever worked with a setup like that, this is the same.  

 

Chorus, reverb and delay on each mixer channel (or "part" as Casio calls them) have "sends" just like a real world analog mixer would have effect sends.  These sends create 3 discrete submixes that are routed to the 3 "system" effect units.  After a system effect processes a submix, the result is sent back out to the main mix. 

 

Each mixer part can also patch an insert effect. "DSP" is the label Casio uses for insert effects.  The PX-560 has 2 DSP effect units (DSP Lines) to go around, so only 2 mixer channels can be patched with an insert at a time.  Each DSP effect unit can run any of the effect algorithms listed in the DSP effects menu.  Tones are stored with the data needed to select an algorithm and alter the parameters of an algorithm.  It does not matter if a tone is preset or user, they work the same for this purpose.  

 

Casio designed the mixer to automatically choose where and which DSP line can be inserted.  As I mentioned in the previous post, one line is allocated to performance parts, and the other for the MIDI recorder.  If a tone uses the only available DSP insert line for that section of the mixer, any tones chosen after that point will not have a DSP effect.  This is simply the limitations of the system. 

 

Hope I didn't make it too confusing.

[Jokeyman123]

Excellent explanation-I think I'm hitting  bit of a wall because I am used to being able to use more than 2 DSPs in a workstation, but this is not a serious limitation as long as I know what is happening. You should see what the Generalmusic Equinox does with DSP, yikes after years I still bsarely understand it as it has 4 completely separate DSP engines, each with multiple routing schemes and tables of individual effects-, all of which can be used at the same time,  with 3 levels of effects from simple to cryptically complex-some effects are actually 4 combined in a chain eek. If I'm not careful, I think the thing will feedback and blow itself up! Only a rocket scientist-and even then......but i digress.

 

One other bit of clarification, no 2!

 

it sounds like I can use the effects sends (delay, reverb, chorus) in different amounts for each mixer track independently which I knew, and still have a separate (only one) DSP effect whether in a user or preset tone working in addition to the 3 send settings for one tone in the midi recorder/mixer?  Do I have that right? Sounds like it as I record, but until I work some more on this, I'm not totally clear, but I think I've gotten it. And since many of the PX560 tones are programmed with effects already, or are tones I've programmed with my DSP settings as part of the tone, what I will hear in my final multi-track recording will not reflect all of those individual effects as if I were playing each individually live from the keyboard, correct?

 

And finally-the 3 send settings-delay, chorus, reverb-are these considered 1 effect together, or as 3 separate effects? I am able to use (I think) 2 of these in one track, but does that mean I am using up the only 2 effects engines in the PX560, or are all 3 sends considered one effect?  Sorry i ask such tough questions, but DSP routings have always (IMO) been one of the more difficult aspects of working with keyboards, whether workstations or not. A mixing console or software mixing console is one thing, everything is right there-but keyboards not so much. The big screen on the PX560 is a killer though, about as good as I've seen. And if you can answer all this, I owe you big time! 

[Brad Saucier]

51 minutes ago, Jokeyman123 said:

it sounds like I can use the effects sends (delay, reverb, chorus) in different amounts for each mixer track independently which I knew, and still have a separate (only one) DSP effect whether in a user or preset tone working in addition to the 3 send settings for one tone in the midi recorder/mixer?  Do I have that right?

 

Yes

 

51 minutes ago, Jokeyman123 said:

And finally-the 3 send settings-delay, chorus, reverb-are these considered 1 effect together, or as 3 separate effects? I am able to use (I think) 2 of these in one track, but does that mean I am using up the only 2 effects engines in the PX560, or are all 3 sends considered one effect? 

 

For clarity, think of them as 3 different effect boxes you may have purchased from a music store.  The mixer is sending 3 discrete submixes to each effect box. The effects boxes outputs are ultimately routed back to the main mix of the mixer.  

 

The PX-560 has 7 effects "boxes" in total: 2 master effects (EQ and Compressor), 3 system effects (chorus, reverb, delay), 2 DSP insert effects.  I think we could technically call the AiR piano resonance effect the 8th effect (a 3rd DSP insert), but since it's strictly tied to certain piano tones, Casio doesn't lump this in with the rest of the effects system.

 

There is a more detailed block diagram for all of this in the PX-560 manual.  I've basically just reworded it here.  

[Jokeyman123]

Finally, correct me if I'm still in the "cloud". One DSP effect-from one and only one tone while using the mixer/recorder-will be routed through the "system" effects-the chorus, delay and reverb so that will be added to the final mix, although all 16 of the mixer tracks will route through the 3 sends and the final stereo eq and compressor. And at the end of the signal chain, we now have master eq and compressor-which can also be added to affect the final mix as I hear it in total for any or all tracks, set independently of the 3 system send effects, and the 1 DSP tone effect?  Does this sound right?  Sorry for continuing thsi lengthy dialog, but as I am working on a variety of multitrack works, I really need clarity on how the effects work if I want to stay in house, using primarily the PX560.

[Brad Saucier]

Since DSP is a channel insert effect, the DSP "effect box" is inserted between the sound generator and effects sends on a channel.  That means yes, you can send a tone with DSP to all 3 of the system effects mixes just like a tone without DSP can.  

[Jokeyman123]

Excellent, clarity at last!  Thank you for describing what turns out to be a wonderful  mini-tutorial re the DSP routing in the PX560. The diagram is pretty self-explanatory, but reading your explanations helped even more. It seems I will be able to create a multitrack composition in the PX560 with the effect I need on a specific tone in the mix (say the sax growl on a specific track), in addition to whatever reverb, chorus or delay on all the tones, including the sax track. That will work. Thanks again Brad.