Correcting line out levels for recording

[Fam]

Hey all, 

I am attempting to record audio from my px560 into my DAW, but the level I get from the outputs is very low.

My set up was Px560 >TC cables>Motu M4 (outputs 3-4)> Studio one 5 pro. 

Thinking that the consumer grade line out could be kicked up I got a line level shifter and my setup became

px560>TC cables> Ebtech line level shifter> balanced cables> Motu M4 (again outputs 3-4)> Studio one 5 pro.

the results were still pretty quiet. I've turned off the casio's speakers, plugged in the headphone jack, but still the line out is still low.

The motu has preamps on inputs 1-2 but I use those for mics/ guitars.

should I be looking into a preamp or something else to get the px560s line out level up? any suggestions for a preamp or gizmo that will fix this? is there any reason I would want to keep the line out the way it is? 

 

 

[Brad Saucier]

Hi Fam.  I'm trying to think of what you mean by TC cables.  Do you mean TS cables?  Line outs on the PX-560 are unbalanced, so you would use 1/4 inch TS connector cables.  

[Fam]

Oops. yes, I mean TS cables.

[Jokeyman123]

I'm trying to figure out why you are having problems. These are standard line-level output jacks, into any of my recorders, mixers or computer interface, not particularly low. 2.3K out is pretty standard.

 

A few ideas-check your PX560 master eq out setting, page en-81 in the manual.  Also page en-70-look at the "balance" menu to see how those levels are set.

 

Are you recording an individual track/tone, or a mid file/song recorder song? When you are playing a single tone from the keyboard live, the volume is also controlled by the mixer setting for part "A" and for part "B". Each tone's volume can also be controlled through each part's mixer level settings. So there is the signal chain for the 560.

 

The Motu is completely adjustable as far as gain for line-in devices? I'm puzzled as i don't see any way the inputs can be switched from mic to line to guitar-only a single gain control for each input ? What are your level meters looking like when you play? I don't see specs for the inputs on the Motu at all, except that these are TRS in front, must auto-sense the impedance for whatever you plug into it, have phantom power-and seem more designed for mics, and this doesn't seem right-the same input is used for a mic, guitar or line in? Are these levels software controlled by motu software-separately from your DAW? Surprises me as these are all very different impedances. Is it possible you are overdriving the front connectors-which ironically can bring the level lower if it is overdriven by way too much signal. Or the Motu is just not sensitive enough in its front-end preamp for line-in which would be a big surprise. And the specs describe the channel 3 and 4 inputs on the back as line-in only with standard (not TRS) 1/4" jacks and cables. Which are you using to connect the PX560, the front or the back jacks?  With a good audio interface, no you should not need another preamp-the less devices in the signal chain, the better as each additional device, unless absolutely audiphile specs-and given the usb connection to the computer-can introduce noise or other problems. a preamp will only amplify whatever goes into it. I don't see why you would need the ebtech either. the Motu should be enough. 

[Fam]

Thanks for the response guys.

 

So everything is maxed out on the px560, main volume knob, equilizer settings, mixer. on the mix screen the volume is 127 for all tracks/parts on all ports (A,B, and C). I didnt know it functioned like a signal chain, thats good to know! After maxing all the mixer volumes the DAW shows input max out at around -13dB.

 

As for the interface. The back connections are TRS,  not sure why the spec sheet doesn't reflect that. but the user manual describes them as capable of handling  "Balanced or single ended" 3-4 as well as the some of the testers on audioscience https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/motu-m4-loopback-measurements.10890/  inputs 1 & 2 are multijacks with preamps and adjustable gain. It seems like the impedance is automatically adjusted by the Motu itself. My DAW  doesn't play a part in that. That part is kinda dope, although Idk if there are any drawbacks to having input jacks like that.

 

Either way,

I run

560s lineouts > TS cables > Motu (inputs 3-4).  ~ -13dB max

 

560s lineouts > TS cables > Ebtech LLS** > TRS cables > Motu (inputs 3-4) ~ -13dB max 

 

560s lineouts > TS cables > Motu (inputs 1-2)  with gain knob totally down ~-7dBmax -- but i can still adjust the gain up to wherever I need it

 

560s lineouts > TS cables > Ebtech LLS** > TRS cables > Motu (inputs1-2) with gain knob down ~ 0dB and it actually clipped using some of the brass hex layer sounds.

 

/removing all other instruments from input 1-2 didnt seem to change the performance of inputs 3-4 either

 

Again I'd rather use the back inputs save input 1-2  for mics/ guitars

 

 

 

 

**the Ebtech is a line level shifter, (similar to a DI box), which should use a transformer to bring a -10 dBv signal closer to +4dBu... or something like that. I thought it would bring up the signal to a respectable level, but that may of been a gross error in my understanding of audio engineering and I should be ashamed of myself.**

 

 

 

[Fam]

Also.  I either play the px560 and record directly into the DAW. Or I will send midi from the DAW into the px560 (I think that uses Port C) and back to the DAW to get those juicy casio tones. 

 

Edit: sorry for the confusion, this chain looks like this

DAW > Motu M4>midi > PX 560> lineout TS cables> Ebtech LLS> TRS cables> Motu M4 input 1-2> DAW 

 

this gives enough volume from the inputs and I can still access all the px560s sounds, but it eats up inputs 1&2.

[Jokeyman123]

I think your last post might be the best solution. Not sure why the MOTU isn't giving you a hot enough signal. You will be able to see how hot the PX560 is directly into your computer audio input-I have laptops with audio inputs primarily for a standard "dynamic" microphone. My Motion tablets can switch the audio input to line-level or mic low level automatically-I am guessing this is what the Motu is doing-I still have a Focusrite-but firewire interface, i will check this again against my PX560, see what I come up with. Could be the line-level input design on the MOTU is not as "hot" as a studio interface straight into a pro board, or into your computer audio in but it should be.  Looking at the mic input specs-it describes +10dBu. This should be hot enough for the PX560. Another possibility-the PX560 has unbalanced line outputs, Brad correct me if I'm wrong-these are 2 conductor jacks. The MOTU has TRS balanced inputs in the front, and I think the 2 rear 1/4" inputs are unbalanced. Are you using 2 or 3-conductor 1/4" patch cords? Try both types of cablesinto one or the other MOTU input jacks, see if there is a difference- a standard 2-conductor 1/4" and a 3-conductor 1/4"-will look like a stereo 1/4" cable-not like a 3-pin TRS mic cable. 

 

 

[Fam]

Sorry for the confusion, I edited the other post. I guess as a work around I could get a small 2 ch pre amp for Mics and such and keep it connected to the motu inputs 3-4. then keep the keyboard pugged into inputs 1-2. 

 

I'm not sure what could be going on with the inputs 3-4 all the docs I see make me believe its probably a TRS (or whatever colloquialism we want to use for a 3-conductor 1/4" jack)

 

 

 

I hope this picture posts.

[Fam]

Solved... or at least good enough for now

Just wanted to update this a bit.

Although I'm still unsure if it was because of the interface's weak line inputs (probably this) or because of the Casio px 560s outputs the solution that worked for me was adding a small mixing board (Yamaha MG06x) before the interface. I bet an active DI box Or some other preamp like thing might have worked too. But this gives me plenty of headroom.

 

Thanks for the help !

[Jokeyman123]

I suspect it is the MOTU the way it has it's inputs configured. Unbalanced line inputs and outputs are not always identical across different audio devices. I have several digital rmultitrack recorders- fostex MR16, 3 Zooms-a 1266, 1044 and 1608-and I don't detect any unusual low input gain with the 560. Just a guess-the MOTU might have a different input impedance to limit audio signal into the computer-might have a slightly lower gain in order to not overdrive the USB audio input-or the USB audio input itself might be dropping the gain. Again, I will try to get around to testing my Focusrite-although this is firewire, might not be the same gain levels but I'm curious, if these audio interfaces can reduce output for recording. I generally prefer to record a stereo mixdown to Audacity or similar through a mixer or other multitrack deck, usually just to create an mp3.