Recommendations for best Rhodes emulation

[ristst]

Hello all,

 

I just received my X700 yesterday and have been checking our the unit.  I love the action, the keys feel similar to the old Wurlitzer I used to own, quite realistic.  I have a request that the group here may be able to answer.

 

What preset do you think best emulates the Fender Rhodes used in Babylon Sisters, by Steely Dan?  Some of the Rhodes presets sound great in the midranges, but the higher octaves are more of a concern.  For example, the chorus uses the chords Eb to F in quick succession, for the lyric "Shake it", with the inversion played in the higher octaves. Playing these 2 chords, one can hear some limitations with some of the preset electric pianos. 

 

So which preset EP best matches that from Babylon Sisters?  Interestingly, one of the presets I've tested is a "60's EP" (apologies, I don't recall the exact names of the presets and I can't find a list of the sound bank online), which sounds to me like a Wurlitzer with a bit of tremolo, and that voice is nothing short of awesome.  It sounds fantastic, even playing the high Eb-F chords.  But the Dan uses a Rhodes for Babylon Sisters, so I'm torn here about using this voice.  But I have to admit, it works very well for the song.  Another Rhodes emulation has the word "wide" in the name, and that preset works pretty decent as well.

 

It may be EP Wide....when I get home today I'll update the post with the exact names of the presets I'm mentioning, again my apologies.  

 

I may have to use a combination of voices, one voice for the verse/chorus chords, one for the intro piano solo, and one just for the 2 quick Eb-F chords in the chorus and ending.

 

Thoughts or suggestions?  My thanks in advance for any replies.

 

Ric

 

 

[Chandler Holloway]

@ristst

 

I like EPiano 2 a bunch for that tine-y Rhodes sound. Dyno EP and DynamicEP would also be good to try.

 

If you're big into CT-X700 sound design, you should absolutely try my free software utility, RBK Mixer. It adds the ability to properly balance your layered and split tones, which lets you build up some registrations that are way more flexible than what can be accomplished with the onboard controls.

 

Also check out my Utility Bank demos on MIDI control and external effects processing/proper multitrack recording.

 

For more general CT-X700 instruction, have a look through the song mode tutorial I did for Casio's official YouTube channel.

 

There's also custom Rhythms to think about. I have written both a reference manual that details how to create your own Rhythms on your computer, as well as created an editor and librarian utility (ReStyle) to assist with converting, modifying and properly archiving User Rhythms. If you want something more plug and play, try my CT-X700 Rhythm Expansion pack, a ready-made set of 40+ Rhythms pulled from the upper level CT-X models and converted for use on the CT-X700.

 

All of this content is linked in my signature below this post, although you may not be able to view the signature if you're browsing the forum on a mobile device rather than your computer.

 

Happy to answer any questions about advanced CT-X700 capabilities, these models are kind of my specialty around here.  

[Jokeyman123]

Yes indeed-he had one of his old Fender Rhodes up front at Bethel Woods when I saw Steely Dan perform there a few years ago-right before his musical partner Walter Becker, who also performed there, passed away. What a great memory.

 

Might want to think about some type of DSP effect to get what Fender players referred to as that "hot" sound-bringing out the bell-like quality of those tines, bordering on distortion-a mild form of overdrive which some had built into their Fenders, as it was not a very aggressive sound compared to the much louder guitars it had to compete with. I couldn't know, but Donald Fagen may have a "hot-rodded" Fender Rhodes-or often plugged into a Fender amp which would explain why it is so hard to duplicate that beautiful tone he liked so much-without a real Rhodes with those stinkin'  heavy keys. Haven't played a real one in awhile-but i remember-my fingers would smart pretty quickly on the real ones! Not sure if the CTX has an effect called "early reflections" but on a few of my keys-this effect seems to juice up the sound a bit-almost like the old "aural exciters" used to emphasize particular EQ bands.

[Chandler Holloway]

9 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

Not sure if the CTX has an effect called "early reflections" but on a few of my keys-this effect seems to juice up the sound a bit-almost like the old "aural exciters" used to emphasize particular EQ bands.

 

The CT-X700 does not have independently configurable DSP blocks. DSP effects are attached to preset tones from the factory, and you can either leave DSP on or replace it with a Chorus/Flanger preset. Reverbs and Delays are also only configurable as presets from the function list, and they share the same parameter so you have to choose between your standard Reverbs (Hall, Stadium, Cathedral etc) and the standard hall reverb plus a delay (Delay 1 is short slapjack and Delay2 is a longer ping pong delay).

 

This may be rectified with future updates to Tone Tyrant and/or RBK Mixer, but currently the big snag is seeing if the CT-X700 can actually save advanced edits to tone properties within Registrations. It may be possible to send edits via sysex, but it remains to be seen whether those edits can be retained and stored to the internal memory.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Chandler Holloway

[ristst]

Hello all,

 

Some great replies, many thanks. 

 

First, if anyone is wondering what my end goal is, I'm preparing to add this song to my group's songlist.  After several decades and 21 previous versions of the group, we're down to just 2 members, me on guitars/vocals and a bassist/vocalist.  I have a Tascam 24 track digital studio, and I build a drum track the drum machine and record it, then I add any additional harmony vocals and instruments required, such as keys, horns, etc.  I have an alto sax, and I can get pretty good horn tracks using a couple sax tracks along with a trumpet or trombone voice from a keyboard.  Once I get the backing tracks recorded I mix them down to a DigiTech Looper, with each song being a separate loop.  It sounds really good, and our songlist is a mix of reggae/pop/new-wave/funk.  Believe it or not those styles mix together extremely well. We play a number of songs with complicated arrangements, such as Our House (Madness), Steppin' Out (Steel Pulse), Beds are Burning (Midnight Oil), and Ghost Town (The Specials), but Babylon Sisters is by far the most complicated arrangement yet.  The drum track took 2-3 weeks...trying to get the "Purdie Shuffle" duplicated properly was a task.

-

I've been comparing the various presets while listening to Babylon Sisters, a number of them would work easily.  Before getting the X700 I was using Behringer UMX490, and it was difficult to get the correct phrasing with that unit, as it does not have weighted keys.  Not to mention I was using a Piano Box, and the tone of their only "Rhodes" voice was lacking to say the least. Try as I might I just couldn't quite get a result that satisfied me, it just sounded off.  The CT-X700 action makes a huge difference, and immediately I was able to get a result much closer to the original song.  The weighted keys facilitate the phrasing a lot better, and even with voices that aren't necessarily Rhodes-based (60's EP for example) the result is far better for things such as the opening Rhodes solo.   

 

Epiano 4-6 seem to have somewhat of a bell tone,  I can hear it when playing the 5ths on the low notes in the intro to the song. Dyno Ep sounds good, although it's a little too mellow. Dynamic EP is also good.  But I decided on EPiano2, the tremolo is a little more than I would prefer, but it's acceptable. I may be able to play around with the EQ settings some on some of the tones, but I'm gettin' kinda weary after working on this piano part for more than a month...lol. 

 

Too bad that some of the DSPs on the various tones are a bit much, at least for me.  I can hear what sounds like a subtle phase shift on the Rhodes in the original recording of Babylon Sisters.  Unfortunately the phase shift in EPiano3 is too stark, the amplitude is a bit large and the frequency seems to be around 2 cycles/second.  On sustained chords the wow-wow-wow effect is noticeable and distracting.

I messed around with the chorus/flanger, but can't tell that it actually replaced the DSP.  Testing a flange on Epiano3, I can still hear the wow-wow-wow sound on a sustained chord,  or am I not applying the flange effect properly?  I can't see in the manual where it says to press "OK", or enter or whatever.  I wish I could just turn off the DSP on some of the voices, but that doesn't seem to be an option.  But I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong here and not applying the effect correctly.

 

Thanks again for the replies.

 

Ric

Edited March 19, 2022 by ristst

[Jokeyman123]

right-seems to be Casio's design-to incorporate DSP into particular tones, which causes confusion if a user isn't clear about that.  I guess the only solution would be to add "virtual" DSP through outboard software/computer control, or the "old-fashioned" external effects boxes. Old is new, new is old! apparently, this one is still around, in a new updated form factor....or you might find the older versions on the used market, for less money.

 

http://www.bbesound.com/products/sonic-maximizers/482i.aspx

 

ristst-might give you what you want-but at added expense. Depends on how far you want to go to get that great Donald Fagen Rhodes. also make a stomp box version.

[ristst]

I worked on and off throughout the weekend, almost have the piano track done.  I have a few edits here and there to complete, but I finished the first two choruses yesterday.  The chorus is the most convoluted section of the song, it has multiple movements where it shifts gears completely.  Not to mention that all three choruses are different.  Argh...

 

EPiano2 is sounding very good, it's gonna work quite well.  Now, if I can only get my brother to learn the bass line...haha!  But the opening solo sounds much more like the original recording, a *lot* better than what I could get out of the Behringer.  Just for fun I ran through all the organ tones to see what they were like...this unit is a real keeper.  I got a huge kick out of the DP Organ, I couldn't help but grin ear to ear listening to that classic John Lord distortion!

 

One thing to mention is that I had to transpose the song down 1/2 step, the vocal is a lot higher than one would think.  I would've preferred a full step, but that results in the bass track being a lot trickier, if not unplayable without detuning.  

[Pravito]

I usually use EPiano 2 for the best Rhodes emulation

 

If you want a more modern-sounding one, try Dyno EP. It sounds like the late 70s Rhodes.

 

In addition, the GM EPiano 1 is good for more crisp and "older" tone, reminiscent of early 70s Rhodes 

[ksand]

Total novice here. Does the Casio CT-X700 support the Rhodes V8 plug-in?

[Brad Saucier]

10 minutes ago, ksand said:

Total novice here. Does the Casio CT-X700 support the Rhodes V8 plug-in?

 

CT-X700 can function as a basic MIDI controller through it's USB type B port.  It can control any virtual MIDI instruments like that.  

[EightiesJazzFan]

Traditionally the way that Casio has done this is to give those patches/presets a non_proprietary but highly innocuous sounding name. I know what this looks like for my WK-200. It's called Dyno EP. That was one of many reasons that I bought this board. The Yamahas at a similar price point ( think DGX-230 ) only had remotely similar sounding EPs. Essentially, this preset is a bang on emulation of the Fender-Rhodes. Of course, Casio is not allowed to advertise that. I've tried to show below two of those:

https://photos.google.com/u/3/photo/AF1QipOfMCXZ5xEX7PsPUb1-jMjcI8RWa4T1lNvMpwmc

https://photos.google.com/u/3/photo/AF1QipOiCvkxiBQb971jMNHNryTbi1ZwC11qhNasTG-Y

[EightiesJazzFan]

What Casio has done in the past ( at least with the WK series ) is to publish as an appendix to the user's manual a list of tones. It seems that the practice continues with CT-X series as well. Here is the link:

https://www.casio.com/content/dam/casio/global/support/manuals/electronic-musical-instruments/pdf/008-en/w/Web_14M1APPEND-WL-1A_EN.pdf

Among the 600 tones listed in the specifications on the main page for the keyboard, certainly one if not more of those are EPs that emulate the F-R. However, start off with the first one that you come to that says Dyno EP

Edited October 27, 2023 by EightiesJazzFan
the initial post had information that needed correction