Reverse Topic: Midi CC Automation in AC7 Rhythm

[N. K. Shrivastava]

Hello everyone,

 

May be this is a reverse topic...

 

Is there any way to make any Rhythm Part automation of volume/pan/expression or any other for AC7 rhythm just like Yamaha or Korg style?

 

I have not found any option on the MZ-X500 keyboard to edit the rhythm with this. The expression padel also doesn't work.

 

Any ideas?

 

Thank You

[Akshansh - Alex]

Ofcourse possible, with all midi continue controller data like mostly used CC1, CC7, CC11 and CC74. I successfully created the rhythm using midi control data automations. In face the rhythm can be played on CT-X5000. But due to less function the rhythm got laggy a bit.

 

I have posted the same thing before but I got there was no answer on that discussion and finally I do lots of attempt and got successful on this.

 

There is a way to create an automation clip on the AC7 file but after creating the automation you cannot record that part because after recording all the automation will be bypass.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Akshansh Khare - Alex

[Jokeyman123]

This will probably not help you much-you are getting a good "handle" on this on your own-but the XW-P1/G1 have specific tracks dedicated to setting control changes like you are doing for the CTX. Yes, the Casio single CPU's handle almost every chore in the operating system-and I have found limitations when trying to do too much at once-the CPU lagging as you have found. Even much more "advanced"-read "expensive" workstations can suffer with this problem. the music industry always seemed to be one step behind the computer industry. Most keyboards were still using floppy drives while the computer industry was using solid-state cards, hard-drive recording, etc.

 

I believe I can also record "real-time" CC from the mixer screen with the PX560 that will affect the rhythm accompaniment-for example changing each individual part's volume/panning/DSP or instrument choices-but this has to be done using only the system track-the same track that is used to record a rhythm accompaniment along with all the settings for an entire song. I will do some experimenting and see how that works, I have never needed to do that until you've posted some of the ideas you are working out and am not sure if this works the way I think it does.

 

And of course-the system track information for these changes to the rhythm-has no overdubbing-so any re-recording onto the system track will erase any CC settings recorded from the original system track recording-and I am pretty sure-these changes will not be saved as part of the rhythm by itself as a file, but only as part of the entire saved song arrangement-which at least with the PX-560-can be saved as a midi file. If you are working out a way to save these CC messages within the rhythm file, would be a major accomplishment I think.  I wish I had better programming skills to help you. Aside from being able to interpret some hex code with hex software which can interpret most file formats, I am no developer or programmer. Keep up your work, it sounds very promising.

[N. K. Shrivastava]

Wow, I'm looking forward how to assign these settings to MZ-X500 or CT-X5000.

 

@Jokeyman123 @Akshansh Khare - Alex I have ReStyle, Style to CKF software... Will it work on any process of this?

 

Thank You

[N. K. Shrivastava]

Can you post a short audio or video of that rhythm (any one variation) I'm curious to hear it. If you have MZ-X500, then it would be creat to play the rhythm on that. 

 

Thank You

-- Alex 🙂

[Silvano Silva]

I believe that automation of CC commands only works with the Midi file.

When you create a midi with a CC command and convert it to Casio MZ-X where you switch to AC7 the entire automation process is deleted.

This is clearly a limitation of the AC7 file. This has already been discussed numerous times, including the issue of the AC7 file system being blocked.

A classic example is some factory rhythms that have different introductions in major chords and minor chords. This resource type cannot play and create on Casio because the AC7 file is locked.

[Chandler Holloway]

6 hours ago, Silvano Silva said:

I believe that automation of CC commands only works with the Midi file.

When you create a midi with a CC command and convert it to Casio MZ-X where you switch to AC7 the entire automation process is deleted.

This is clearly a limitation of the AC7 file. This has already been discussed numerous times, including the issue of the AC7 file system being blocked.

A classic example is some factory rhythms that have different introductions in major chords and minor chords. This resource type cannot play and create on Casio because the AC7 file is locked.

 

Rhythms processed by ReStyle can be unlocked, and MZ-X Rhythms can be unlocked via a roundabout series of copies and pastes.

 

The dual intros with major/minor variants are proprietary to official Casio created Rhythms, though, that much is true. Unlocking the file does not grant access to the "hidden" alternate intro, it just makes the main one editable. @Mclandy is the only one who knows anything about how those dual intros are handled in the file format to my knowledge.

[Akshansh - Alex]

8 hours ago, Silvano Silva said:

When you create a midi with a CC command and convert it to Casio MZ-X where you switch to AC7 the entire automation process is deleted.

 

You can do anything with the rhythm before loading into the keyboard and it's follows the commands. Import the rhythm as SMF on MZ-X will not "delete" all automation cc commands of data excluding Modulation. It only "bypass" that with changing all the automation values to "0".

 

My 13 friends including me, are designing a software that will create a automation of  c data. And I'm also finding another way to create cc events by using existing softwares.

 

Listen the records audio of automation clip of my recently created rhythm for Casio keyboard "90's DancePop". I have added CC7 and CC11 events in the part.

Now, Automation CC7 and CC11 data are added to the rhythm.

 

This not feels nice with this rhythm but for example I think it is good.

 
https://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/topic/21033-90s-music-casio-keyboard-are-in-action/&do=findComment&comment=79680

 

I Recommend to use headphone for better listening.

 

Audio info:

Variation 3 - No CC Automation

Variation 3 Fill-In - Same as above Variat 3

Variation 4 - have CC Automation clip

Variat 4 Fill-In - No

Intro (minor) - No CC for now.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Akshansh Khare - Alex

[Akshansh - Alex]

17 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

This will probably not help you much-you are getting a good "handle" on this on your own-but the XW-P1/G1 have specific tracks dedicated to setting control changes like you are doing for the CTX. Yes, the Casio single CPU's handle almost every chore in the operating system-and I have found limitations when trying to do too much at once-the CPU lagging as you have found. Even much more "advanced"-read "expensive" workstations can suffer with this problem. the music industry always seemed to be one step behind the computer industry. Most keyboards were still using floppy drives while the computer industry was using solid-state cards, hard-drive recording, etc.

 

I believe I can also record "real-time" CC from the mixer screen with the PX560 that will affect the rhythm accompaniment-for example changing each individual part's volume/panning/DSP or instrument choices-but this has to be done using only the system track-the same track that is used to record a rhythm accompaniment along with all the settings for an entire song. I will do some experimenting and see how that works, I have never needed to do that until you've posted some of the ideas you are working out and am not sure if this works the way I think it does.

 

And of course-the system track information for these changes to the rhythm-has no overdubbing-so any re-recording onto the system track will erase any CC settings recorded from the original system track recording-and I am pretty sure-these changes will not be saved as part of the rhythm by itself as a file, but only as part of the entire saved song arrangement-which at least with the PX-560-can be saved as a midi file. If you are working out a way to save these CC messages within the rhythm file, would be a major accomplishment I think.  I wish I had better programming skills to help you. Aside from being able to interpret some hex code with hex software which can interpret most file formats, I am no developer or programmer. Keep up your work, it sounds very promising.

 

Yes exactly, the AiX gets laggy while play the rhythm on it. I probably found why? This is because of polyphony hit and goes above from 64? Do you have any idea about that?

 

While playing this rhythm on MZ-X have no lag and issue. The MZ-X500 plays the rhythm very smoothly.

 

No need to record midi first with use of real-time controls. There is an option to make perfect continuous controls events by using computer.

 

Well, I don't think panning (CC 10) works with "Casio rhythms". No doubt my Korg Pa4X was accept all midi cc data into styles but I no longer have that keyboard.

 

Recording automation on midi can affect on AC7 rhythm? I think while you record anything on midi, if you use real-time controller knobs to assign the events. The knobs works with from Part 1 to Part 4. How can this will work? There is one wat to make this work: Move control data part to the rhythm section part.

 

Yes trust on me this is really promising. I've tested this. I'm also not even a good programmer but I'm only trying to make Casio keyboards more powerful and useful. Im only 18 year old who is studying on school in 12th standard. On MZ-X I found some factory made rhythms in "Pop" category, they are well designed with cc automation data in it. From that I started my work to make automations possible on AC7. Like Yamaha and Korg even Medeli, they are using automation then why Casio can not! 🙂

[Jokeyman123]

The problem with lagging during the rhythms-I can guess it takes alot of CPU cycles to process the newer AIX tones in the CTX's, I don't think the MZ-X uses the AIX sound source, it uses the slightly older sound generation design such as in the PX560/360, and for some of the GM sounds, the same as the CTK/WK newer Casios from whay I am hearing-the 6200/6250/7000/7200 and WK6500/6600/7500/7600 which may not need as much from the CPU.

 

Assuming the CC  messages need to be processed with the same CPU as produces the AIX sound sources-which also must create the DSP effects within the tones-many Casio tones have DSP effects as part of the tone-now you are pushing the CPU to possibly beyond what it was designed to do. A rhythm will use alot of polyphony-many voices at once, a demanding job for the CPU. For example-my Alesis Fusions-which use several CPUS each dedicated to different functions-still needs a setting to choose between using the CPU's for maximum polyphony, or for quickest load time for programs  made of sample-based tones. And the Fusion has basically an infinite number of voices but very much depends upon how the multiple CPU's "see" the data streams to determine how many voices can play. This shows that the more voices you need to access at once-for example for a rhythm accompaniment or multi-track composition-the harder the CPU needs to work.

 

For a custom rhythm with alot of CC messages with a CTX-I think using the GM voices rather than the Casio "extended" voices would use less CPU, but I'm not sure the CTX makes that distinction between GM voices and the better tones such as for the acoustic pianos as does my PX560, and the XW-P1, which keeps the PCM GM sounds in a distinct category, so you may always be using tones that need heavy CPU processing in the AIX series.

 

The "AIR" pianos in the Casios use alot more CPU I think, than the GM acoustic pianos since the AIR pianos need alot more CPU processing to simulate all the additional functions embedded in the AIR piano tones-acoustic resonance/damper sounds and stereo etc. I embed program and bank change information in order to use the extended better tones when I create a user rhythm for the Casio PX560-not that this alone will use more CPU, but it will use some-any message in a midi file will use CPU cycles to send and receive code once in the Casio.  If you can strip the CASM data from your Yamaha files, this might help. Look at Jorgen Sorensen's website-there are several software programs that deal with the CASM settings in a Yamaha rhythm file. it is a task to do that from what little I know. If there is still CASM code in your Yamaha rhythm conversion-I'm sure it will use at least some of the CPU's processing cycles. Might not seem like much, but on top of everything else that has to happen in a rhythm file with embedded CC messages and embedded DSP settings in a tone-why I prefer to use a computer for creating/processing complex midi files-and use the PX as a tone module, I think the CTX's can do the same.

 

http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software.htm

[Mclandy]

SInce @Chandler Holloway tagged me, let me comment on a few of the points in this discussion. (Note: this is all true as far as I know for CTX keyboards, since that's what I have.  I can't say for sure for other Casio keyboards.)

• Regarding AC7 files which contain alternative Major/Minor tracks for intros and endings (you can also have them for Variations and Fills, but generally it is unnecessary) - Even if those tracks are "unlocked" (which involves adding a special event to the track), the CTX keyboard does not allow them to be edited.  Apparently it detects when an Element has multiple tracks and still won't allow the edit operation, mostly because it does not provide a way to select only one of the tracks.  So contrary to what Chandler said, my experience is that it does not even allow editing of the "main" track.  For multiple track parts, neither are editable on the keyboard, even if unlocked.  In addition, I believe if you try to Save a Rhythm (on the keyboard) with an Intro or Ending containing dual tracks that have been unlocked, it deletes them!
• The AC7 rhythms do support a number of Control Change events - Modulation, Expression, Pitch Bend Range, Filter Resonance, Release, Attack, Filter Cutoff.  Strangely, I'm not so sure about Volume and Pan.  It seems like they should, except for the fact that the track Volume and Pan settings are defined by parameters in the Mixer portion of the AC7.   If you do ever happen to create an AC7 that seems to have dynamic Volume or Pan events occurring in it, I'd be really, really interested in seeing it.
• As far as the DSP usage in Rhythms, the Rhythm section of the keyboard has two DSP engines dedicated to playing the Accompaniment sounds.  In the AC7 file, those two engines can either be explicitly defined and assigned to specific parts, or they can be used implicitly for Tones referenced in the AC7 which have DSPs as part of their definition.  Explicit assignments in the AC7 take precedence over the normal implicit usage by Tones.  In cases where there are more than two explicit or implicit (Tone-based) DSPs called for, some of the tones will lose their DSP function.  So I think the precedence order is explicit first, then Bass and Chord 1-5.  The point is, there is a limit to DSP usage in Rhythms, although I'm sure that parts with DSP and a lot of polyphony could bog down the processor.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Mclandy

[Akshansh - Alex]

Yes, the AC7 have dynamic volume control but not the panning control. I'll look for more details tomorrow and post the panning answer here.

 

I think there is one way to see how dual intros work if we unlock AC7 file then convert it into MIDI. But there is no softwares to convert AC7 into MIDI. By recording through keyboard as midi will not be helpful with this.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Akshansh Khare - Alex