A new px-560 in 2023 ?

[JF-SEBASTIEN]

Hi everybody ! Do you think there will be a successor in 2023 ? 8 years ago, now…

[Tsquare]

I would hope so.  I've had my PX560 for the past 5 years and use it constantly without issues.  I'm very happy with all it's logical functionality and especially the 88 keys.  However, I've found myself recently using my Novation Launchkey 49 midi controller with VSTi's and Reaper for DAW more and more.  Personally, I no longer think a new workstation keyboard can compete with the relatively cheap setup of a midi controller (I bought used $149) with all the VST choices (mostly free) and a DAW (Reaper is $66).  The functionality of a PC/DAW will always trump hardware.  That said, I do like the simplicity of sitting down at my PX560, picking a voice, and playing without any aforethought.  I don't see the latest 88 key boards from Casio worthy of an upgrade over my PX560 when costs & features are considered.  I would purchase a new Casio in a heartbeat if they came up with a cost effective version of something similar to the Ketron Event arranger.     

[Brad Saucier]

Do I think?  No

[AlenK]

I agree with Brad. No. You can see the trajectory of Casio keyboard releases since the PX-560 (and PX-360 and CGP-700) and MZ-X keyboards. There have been none with graphical touch screens. There have been none (IMO) with truly professional features. For some reason, Casio did a 180 degree turn and backed away from the professional keyboard market. They claimed with the release of the XW synths to be back in that market “with a vengeance.” That lasted only a few years. 
 

I’m not dissing Casio. They make excellent keyboards with high value for money and they are still innovating. But they haven’t gone in the direction I had hoped they would. 

[anotherscott]

Yeah, they seem to have been in-and-out of the more (semi-)pro-oriented market numerous times over the years. I think it's a testament to the PX5S and PX560 that, as old as they are, they're still in production, and still competitive.

[Choppin]

Looking up some market research and reviewing some of CASIO's projections here and there, it seems like the least profitable chunk of their business is the chunk that includes  electronic musical instruments.  They actively at least since 2019, have been trying to reduce the components and physical sizes (as an example) of their instruments to try and at least shed some cost on production.   And nothing like the PX-5s has appeared again in over 10 years -though the PX-560 has some similarities.  they could've made the PX-560 the follow up to the PX-5s but you see they removed knobs and faders and other buttons as part of a way, I'm sure, to keep costs down.  And deep functionality went away with that.  Adding the touch screen is a nice touch, but it didn't bring more synthesis and options.  If they had just slapped a touch screen on the PX-5s that probably would have been a better seller.  But that would mean a lot of redesign I guess; and probably a lot of unjustifiable cost if the sales aren't there.

 

Computers, hand held devices etc really take away the need for complex synthesizer workstation type units.  A good controller may be more marketable. 

[AlenK]

Re PX-5s with a touchscreen, that would have been good. But there are aspects of the PX-560 that are valuable beyond its touchscreen. The 17-track sequencer for one. The fact that it uses encoders instead of pots (albeit only three) for another. (The former are much better for live adjustment of parameters.) So, although the PX-560 was not a replacement for the PX-5s, my ideal stage piano would have combined the best of both instruments. 

 

Personally, I was at one time hoping for an XW-P1 successor that would have been sort of a cross between the XW-P1 and the MZ-X500 with 76 keys but without speakers. And including the return of phase distortion synthesis.

 

Re computers vs hardware workstation keyboards, the popularity of the former has not dissuaded keyboard manufacturers like Yamaha, Roland and Korg from releasing new versions of the latter. They differ somewhat from the workstations of the past but still appeal to live musicians and to studio musicians who prefer doing as much as they can on hardware. Some even claim they are more creative on hardware. 

[Choppin]

14 hours ago, AlenK said:

...the popularity of the former has not dissuaded keyboard manufacturers like Yamaha, Roland and Korg from releasing new versions of the latter

 

Branding... It kinda stinks that CASIO doesn't have the reputation as those big names.  These CASIO synths/stage pianos are excellent but just don't carry the same renown.  I wish there were new and regular updates/models of the PX-560, the WXs and the PX-5s.   Maybe it'll happen... 

[Jokeyman123]

If I do gigs-I am planning another DJ thing with a few laptops as a setup with mp3's-have something coming up now that the pandemic is finally fading away a bit-and will be doing some live playing again ASAP, I don't want to rely on these fragile laptops for a playing live music. One bad house electric system, or stage lights with faders-most laptops are not shielded and I've had all kinds of interference problems, with keyboards too. But I am waiting for NAMM in April-hoping casio might come out with ne killer keyboard workstation to compete with the Nords, Kurzweils, Fantoms etc-and undercut all of them. I'd let go of my 560 if they upped the feature set, drawbars-the newest of their modeled pianos-I bet they could do it.

 

The newer keys with no shielding plastic cases I'd be wary. I use heavily filtered and regulated supplies out of the house.

 

I'd rather drop a keyboard on a stage (I have) and have it still working-than a laptop without shock-proof mounted cases, most of which will have no hard drive shock-mounting unless its an SSD or solid state chips in a tablet. Even then...any extra connections-I'll stick with a good workstation or 2 with sets of pre-recorded stuff on their sequencers or audio recorders if i need with their electronically enclosed circuitry, rather than usb or DIN adapter cables-for home use OK, but not out in the field, especially not outdoor venues-where even the best computer/tablet screens have to be heavily protected against external light to be seen at all. I've seen awful house electric systems, running 80-90V AC or over 110-120 US.

 

I trust a dedicated keyboard CPU in a built-in keyboard-rather than a computer CPU, which will always be sharing threads with OS processes, no matter how much I turn off other "services" or programs. Even Android which is supposed to operate each app in a "box" doesn't really, not anymore with Google OS taking over-everything except in the Apple world. Linux better, but still-a laptop only as backup.

 

 I'm trying pianoteq, out of curiosity/for comparison with hardware pianos, with a decent USB/midi audio interface. Will run it against the PX560 physically modeled acoustics, my Fusion "Holy Grail" and its many soundfont pianos I've installed, Coakley's "Perfect Piano", a Korg SP-500 with RH2 graded hammer action (really a Fatar TP40 modified), very nice.  And a newly acquired Yamaha P50m-shockingly good acoustics for such an old module.

 

I've tried many soundfont acoustic pianos-so far not thrilled with even big soundfont pianos, so much depends on key action boards.  I'll see if Pianoteq is as good as claimed. But again one bad connection, a failed hard drive, dropped laptop or bad "juice" from the house supply-now I have nada.

 

Controllers-so many, competition must be terrible-and for a long time now. 25, 37, 49, 61, 76, 88-you can have one of each now, and i have!  I  see why Casio wouldn't do that. I've had Fatar, Axiom, Samson, Korg, Edirol can't even remember all the controllers I've had-never comfortable having to configure settings for even simple program changes, unless it is right under my hands-I don't need the extra hassle of having to check a computer screen for everything I'd need to do, then my hardware. Setting up automations only adds to complexity if i need to change registrations, banks or anything else for setlists. If anything can go wrong, it will.

But just my opinion.

[Joe Muscara]

On 2/14/2023 at 2:20 PM, Choppin said:

They actively at least since 2019, have been trying to reduce the components and physical sizes (as an example) of their instruments to try and at least shed some cost on production.

What? You think they made the keyboards smaller to reduce costs? Do you know how much it costs to retool manufacturing? They had been making the same chassis size for the 88-key models for years to that point. Now they have a new line that has wood keys.

 

The change in size wasn't about costs at all.

[Brad Saucier]

There have been numerous requests in the user groups over the years to make weighted action models smaller (shorter, 76 or 73 keys).  Maybe Japan thought they would satisfy everyone with a slimmer keyboard while keeping 88 keys?  

[Choppin]

3 hours ago, Joe Muscara said:

What? You think they made the keyboards smaller to reduce costs? Do you know how much it costs to retool manufacturing? They had been making the same chassis size for the 88-key models for years to that point. Now they have a new line that has wood keys

Absolutely they did. For any business it's about overall cost and profitability.  And a company will employ methods to make money and keep going.  And if there are investors,  they need to find a way to keep them happy too.   If you go to:

 

CASIO Financial Plans

 

You can follow along through the years with their business plans, costs and financials.  You'll find clearly stated in more than one place and one year how to tackle the least profitability area of the business and for electronic instruments, how reducing overall size - which includes components that make up the devices as well as the affecting the amount of packaging for shipping/storage/transport etc. - is one of the strategies.   Here's a clip from one of the plans:

 

 

Smaller instruments may mean less (or less effective - aka cheaper) electronics.   So undoubtedly some functionality has to go.   I mean, if the PX-560x was really meant to follow the PX-5s, one of the biggest requests for a new PX-5s was to have 9 sliders so you could "organ it up" easier.   The sliders went away entirely - so did half the knobs and buttons.

 

So if an new PX-560 comes out, it's going to have to fit into the new design trends for the portable keyboards CASIO is making.  Electronics improve all the time but if you look at something like Roland's Fantom-8 from a couple years ago (an upgrade from the F-08) they sort of went all in with the electronics and functionality.  And this monster weighs in at 61 lbs to accommodate.  I don't think CASIO would move in this direction to upgrade the PX-5s or PX-560.  Roland can get away with it.

 

I'm sure this post is getting boring but some of the new adaptive strategies include "getting into the users heart/lifestyle" with music and digital instruments.  It includes more of an online presence and everything that surrounds that kind of endeavor.  A smart move might be to have their own DAW that pairs nicely with a CASIO keyboard... who knows, but I think the making of another deep super synth isn't on the radar.

 

Also, it's mostly the dinosaurs that are buying expensive and large synth rigs with multi-functionality.  Most young people aren't into that (and can't afford it) - and they are the ones that will be driving sales.  The dinosaurs are familiar with the names that have been around forever and regardless of innovation, still regard CASIOs as those toy tiny keyboards from yesteryear. 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Choppin

[Silvano Silva]

On 1/6/2023 at 3:55 AM, JF-SEBASTIEN said:

Hi everybody ! Do you think there will be a successor in 2023 ? 8 years ago, now…

Nope! 

Casio is concerned with Slim Pianos and Casiotones.

[Jokeyman123]

Before you accuse us old dinosaurs-

 

1 )I have several Casios and I've lived long enough to still play them all

 

2) Many old dinosaurs (and a few pleisosaurs) are also looking for lighter-weight keys, especially if you still play locally and have to carry your own equipment.

 

3) I can afford any keyboard I want or need, but i still bought into the Casios for various reasons, and even though I have some other fairly heavy and older workstations.

4) And finally yes this is getting boring. 

[Silvano Silva]

3 hours ago, Choppin said:

Absolutely they did. For any business it's about overall cost and profitability.  And a company will employ methods to make money and keep going.  And if there are investors,  they need to find a way to keep them happy too.   If you go to:

 

CASIO Financial Plans

 

You can follow along through the years with their business plans, costs and financials.  You'll find clearly stated in more than one place and one year how to tackle the least profitability area of the business and for electronic instruments, how reducing overall size - which includes components that make up the devices as well as the affecting the amount of packaging for shipping/storage/transport etc. - is one of the strategies.   Here's a clip from one of the plans:

 

 

Smaller instruments may mean less (or less effective - aka cheaper) electronics.   So undoubtedly some functionality has to go.   I mean, if the PX-560x was really meant to follow the PX-5s, one of the biggest requests for a new PX-5s was to have 9 sliders so you could "organ it up" easier.   The sliders went away entirely - so did half the knobs and buttons.

 

So if an new PX-560 comes out, it's going to have to fit into the new design trends for the portable keyboards CASIO is making.  Electronics improve all the time but if you look at something like Roland's Fantom-8 from a couple years ago (an upgrade from the F-08) they sort of went all in with the electronics and functionality.  And this monster weighs in at 61 lbs to accommodate.  I don't think CASIO would move in this direction to upgrade the PX-5s or PX-560.  Roland can get away with it.

 

I'm sure this post is getting boring but some of the new adaptive strategies include "getting into the users heart/lifestyle" with music and digital instruments.  It includes more of an online presence and everything that surrounds that kind of endeavor.  A smart move might be to have their own DAW that pairs nicely with a CASIO keyboard... who knows, but I think the making of another deep super synth isn't on the radar.

 

Also, it's mostly the dinosaurs that are buying expensive and large synth rigs with multi-functionality.  Most young people aren't into that (and can't afford it) - and they are the ones that will be driving sales.  The dinosaurs are familiar with the names that have been around forever and regardless of innovation, still regard CASIOs as those toy tiny keyboards from yesteryear. 

 

"Also, it's mostly the dinosaurs that are buying expensive and large synth rigs with multi-functionality.  Most young people aren't into that (and can't afford it) - and they are the ones that will be driving sales.  The dinosaurs are familiar with the names that have been around forever and regardless of innovation, still regard CASIOs as those toy tiny keyboards from yesteryear. "

I disagree because young people also evolve and when they think that CTK is no longer available, they already want a CT-X. The Brand has to make an effort to KEEP THE CUSTOMERS.

I have countless cases of friends who have a CT-X / CTK and dream of a Casio MZ-X. 

The same can be said for Pianos and Synthesizers.

 

[Choppin]

The dinosaur comment was more of a bait for reaction!  Just to turn up the heat a little on the boring posts I left.

 

At the end of the day this thread is really just opinions but if you go through those plans and financials in the link I posted, you can see CASIO's direction.  And it doesn't look like it's towards self contained workstations or expansive synthesizers.  But there's always hope

[Jokeyman123]

I know, i took it fun. Good thing us dinosaurs have those 2 little hands on top-but my big feet are murder on the pedals.

[AlenK]

On 2/16/2023 at 11:16 AM, Choppin said:

I mean, if the PX-560x was really meant to follow the PX-5s, one of the biggest requests for a new PX-5s was to have 9 sliders so you could "organ it up" easier.   The sliders went away entirely - so did half the knobs and buttons.

First, the PX-560 was NOT intended to replace the PX-5s. They have been (still are?) available at the same time. Different products for different users. 
 

Second, half the knobs and buttons did not go away. The PX-5s has 39 buttons and five knobs (including the volume knob but not counting the pitch-bend and modulation wheels). The PX-560 has 27 buttons (not counting the three dedicated areas of the touchscreen that function as buttons) and four knobs (not counting the data wheel). Hence, the PX-560 has 69 percent of the buttons and 80 percent of the knobs. (If you only count user-programmable knobs, then it is 75 percent of the knobs.) 

 

Resorting to hyperbole does not improve your argument. 
 

Edited February 24, 2023 by AlenK

[Joe Muscara]

20 hours ago, Choppin said:

the amount of packaging for shipping/storage/transport etc

You are right about that part, in that they can fit more units in the same amount of space, less weight to ship and all that with the commensurate reduction in costs. However, you seem to believe that they're willing to give up quality and functionality in order to do this. While we're still waiting and hoping for a successor to the PX-5S, if you make an apples to apples comparison of models such as the PX-160 to the PX-S1000, I don't see reduced functionality. I guess you might argue that the PX-360 had the color touch screen while the PX-S3000 doesn't and I haven't looked at them feature for feature, I don't think there's a reduction in functionality. I could be wrong about that. OTOH, I've seen the PX-S3000/3100 in more stores than I ever saw the PX-360.

[Choppin]

Yup.  Whatever works for CASIO is what they'll do.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Choppin