PX-560 DSP assign for acoustic simulator

[Jokeyman123]

How do I create and save different settings using the acoustic simulator effect?  For that matter, any effect I want to modify and save as part of a tone?

 

Best I can understand-I pick one of the acoustic piano tones, fo into edit mode screen, go to the dsp screen, pick the acoustic simulator, change whatever settings I want and then save it as a user tone. But I'm not sure this is how it works, since I understand specific effects are already part of the factory tones and I don't think these can be changed. I could be wrong. Do I need to do this by saving my DSP mod along with the tone in a registration? If anybody can clarify this for me, I am spending much time on this amazing instrument. I just listened to midi file of Chick Corea's "Spain" on this and it blew me away-there may be more realistic samples in other workstations or computer soundfonts but this sounded pretty nice to me.

[AlenK]

As you surmise you can certainly change the DSP effect that is called up by a tone and then save your edited tone to a user memory. (You can't overwrite the factory tones on Casio instruments, at least on the recent ones.) AFAIK you don't have to save the combination in a new registration. However, if you were to change any of the parameters of the reverb, the system delay or the system chorus (the latter not to be confused with the DSP chorus) your changes would need to be saved into a registration. That's because those are send effects, not insert effects. IOW they are global to all tones. Per tone or mixer channel you can only change the amount of the signal sent to the reverb and to the delay and to the system chorus. 

 

One complication about DSP effects: The PX-560 can only do two at the same time. One of those is dedicated to the four keyboard play tones and the auto-harmonize function. The other is shared by the auto-accompaniment and 16 tones addressable by the MIDI recorder (aka sequencer).

 

If two or more tones in the up to four you can play yourself on the keyboard call up different DSP effects, which tone will retain its DSP? I believe that Upper 1 gets priority. In the case of the sequencer, I believe channel 1 has priority. Or maybe it is the auto-accompaniment. The Casio literature does not say. Furthermore, if the tone for Upper 1 does not have a DSP effect, which of the other three keyboard play tones will keep its DSP effect? Again, the Casio literature does not say. Maybe someone here has tried it to see.

[Jokeyman123]

I can experiment to see what happens in terms of DSP priority for the 4 keyboard tones. I still haven't sussed out how the acoustic piano sounds are accessing the parameters associated with  those specifically. when I access the algorithm called "piano effect" when trying to edit for example the first grand piano in the tone list, I see no options after I choose that as my DSP effect. The only other adjustment for editing is called "Lid Type" within the tone editing options. Now when I open the main effects screen and look at the options for the 'acoustic simulator" DSP-hammer response, damper resonance, etc. and alter these-I'm still not understanding what will now happen. I have to assume that whatever changes I make here are saved globally-that along with any piano tone that I choose using the "piano effect" as my DSP algorithm. I am studying the routing diagram for how effects are routed to the various channels as you've described, but I don't see anything specifically explaining what i think is correct. Thanks AlenK again, for helping with this.effects routing has never been very straightforward with any keyboard I've owned, but it sounds like many of the tones are using-have built-in DSPs apart from the 2 we have to choose from, something that is still not clear to me. would have been nice to have a global effects off setting somewhere-I see settings for bypassing DSP 3 different ways-but a DSP "kill" switch would be nice-to quickly hear if there are certain DSP effects going on embedded into the tones from the factory.

[AlenK]

Okay, color me confused. I DO see the options listed for the Piano DSP effect that are listed in the manual. Strangely (to me) the default acoustic piano tone doesn't use it. 

 

Re the acoustic simulator, I believe that is used only for piano tones, despite the parameters always being visible in the Effects page. Page EN-71 lists it as a system effect (i.e., not a DSP effect) and says that it applies only to "certain" tones. Note that the block diagram on page A-6 doesn't even show it. That tells me it is very specialized and not for general use. As a system effect, I would have expected that any changes you make to its parameters would be stored in registrations. But that doesn't seem to work for me, unlike changes I make to parameters for delay, chorus and reverb. It seems to act like a master effect in that sense: One group of settings in memory only. 

 

[Jokeyman123]

Yes the acoustic piano tone uses the "through" setting for DSP! So again, I wish I knew if Casio is designing in some DSP effects-if some effects are being embedded into certain factory tones-i studied the PX350 midi implementation and docs for a long time trying to figure that one out, and it seemed to me that this was true-since the midi implementation charts showed that variations in reverb, chorus and eq were possible if one had the knowledge and patience to write and deliver the code to the PX350, although since nothing could be stored, changes would only exist until I changed the tone, so I felt it wasn't worth the effort. I did manage to get the PX350 to change DSP parameters through sending CC messages with my Korg microKontrol which allows for programming sliders and knobs to control any CC I set it up for. The PX560 thank goodness now gives us full access to programming DSPs, and if there are subtle DSP effects code-embedded in the basic factory tones (I will do some more listening tests with all effects off see what I can come up with) I will experiment with this today and post my results.

 

Maybe Brad Saucier or Mike Martin can weigh in on this and give some clarification Being a perfectionistic control freak, i will sleep better at night knowing how to use every feature in this pretty astounding digital piano.hybrid quasi-workstation/auto-accompaniment thing! 

[Jokeyman123]

OK-weighing in one more time on this.  Apparently to my ears-the acoustic DSP settings for damper noise, string resonance etc. are independent of the the system, tone or master effects. when all these are bypassed, the acoustic algorithm is still affecting the acoustic piano tone. So my conclusion is that there are specific DSP effects embedded into the PX560 factory tones, at least as far as the acoustic pianos. All other tones I selected with all effects off, seemed completely flat comparatively, although there are definitely eq and I think I heard pan settings retained even with all 3 effects settings set to bypass on some of the tones. I did not spend much time with other tones. The raw samples of course could have been designed this way, i wouldn't know unless I was with the Casio coders when they built their sound rom. So at least a little more clarity. Deep machine, but wish there was envelope looping and more envelope stages available for programming tones or hex layers, can't have it all! Then again I was spoiled by the 8-stage CZ envelopes which is how I was able to create many interesting pitch envelopes. Hex layers though....promising......morphing like the old ensoniq transwaves possible-some of the factory hex layers are doing a bit of this I think......

[Brad Saucier]

String resonance, damper resonance, damper pedal noise, etc. are a collection of acoustic simulator effects in the Privia line designed specifically for grand piano tones and apply only to those tones.  They are independent of all other effects in the keyboard including the lid simulation piano effect DSP.  The settings for those effects are stored by auto resume.  They are not stored within tones, registrations or stage settings*PX-5S.  Turning off the effects is done by reducing the settings to zero.  

[sslyutov]

44 minutes ago, Brad Saucier said:

String resonance, damper resonance, damper pedal noise, etc. are a collection of acoustic simulator effects in the Privia line designed specifically for grand piano tones and apply only to those tones.  They are independent of all other effects in the keyboard including the lid simulation piano effect DSP.  The settings for those effects are stored by auto resume.  They are not stored within tones, registrations or stage settings*PX-5S.  Turning off the effects is done by reducing the settings to zero.  

1

What you are saying is correct.

 

However, if resonance is implemented as insert calculation on DSP it has to be possible to apply such calculation to any voice without additional changes.

 

In fact, a sympathetic resonance it a property of any strings instrument (in an orchestra).

[Jokeyman123]

Thanks Brad for clarifying and verifying what I found through experiment. works well.  and SSlyutov-resonance and string resonance are 2 separate adjustments. Resonance can be changed for any tone I've worked with, but "string resonance" is specifically part of the acoustic simulator effects only, as Brad has described. And the effects work well, I've listened through the range of adjustments to hear exactly what each does. Very effective IMO.

[sslyutov]

I did not say anything about how it works(It works fine)

If you look at the picture, in general, the sympathetic resonance is applicable everywhere not only on piano.

 

Since you have researched the subject. Could you please say - the sustain pedal, how many keys does it apply to (to all 88)?

 

 

[Jokeyman123]

I only am using a simple on/off sustain pedal, I don't have the 3-pedal array for now. I cannot say how that works. With my simple on/off pedal-all keys work through the 88-key range.

[sslyutov]

There is only one sustain pedal regardless of the total number. (The middle one is sostenuto, the left one is a soft pedal).

Can you hear any difference with the sustain pedal down and up on the highest two octaves?(grand piano voice)

[Brad Saucier]

In regards to the damper pedal (sustain), Casio grand piano tones try to replicate real acoustic pianos.  Generally, an acoustic piano does not have dampers on the highest notes. The damper pedal will not have an effect on those notes on a real piano.  The sustain pedal on Casio keyboards replicates that for piano tones.  

[AlenK]

5 hours ago, sslyutov said:

If you look at the picture, in general, the sympathetic resonance is applicable everywhere not only on piano.

 

What picture are you referring to? Certainly not the one on page A-6 of the PX-560 User's Guide, which does not show the string or damper resonators at all. Are you perhaps thinking of the picture on page E-6 of the PX-5S User's Guide (Tutorial)? If so I'm afraid it does not in any prove the those resonators are applicable to all tones. Brad is correct; they apply only to acoustic piano tones. Students of acoustic piano synthesis know that "string resonance" and "damper resonance" refer to very specific phenomena happening inside an acoustic piano. They wouldn't be applicable to any other instrument, even the many others that use strings. It just doesn't make sense.  

[Jokeyman123]

I can verify what Brad already stated-the sustain pedal does not change the sustain from the F above C4 (or it it C5) to the last note in that octave above F-from C4 or 5 to the very end note-the sustain as with a grand piano relies strictly on the string sustain with no damper pedal affecting these notes. And yes, I agree with AlenK after much playing and studying-only the grand piano sounds are programmed to allow for access to the "acoustic simulator" settings-that the DSP menu refers to. Because when editing the acoustic piano tones, there is the option to select piano effect which I do not see when I select other sounds. As Brad clearly explained, the acoustic simulator settings apparently are global, but only to the acoustic piano tones, and settings changed under the acoustic simulator DSP are retained, but only  if "auto resume" is on in the settings menu. again important to remember and Brad posted above.

[sslyutov]

13 hours ago, AlenK said:

 

What picture are you referring to? Certainly not the one on page A-6 of the PX-560 User's Guide, which does not show the string or damper resonators at all. Are you perhaps thinking of the picture on page E-6 of the PX-5S User's Guide (Tutorial)? If so I'm afraid it does not in any prove the those resonators are applicable to all tones. Brad is correct; they apply only to acoustic piano tones. Students of acoustic piano synthesis know that "string resonance" and "damper resonance" refer to very specific phenomena happening inside an acoustic piano. They wouldn't be applicable to any other instrument, even the many others that use strings. It just doesn't make sense.  

LOL

[AlenK]

1 hour ago, sslyutov said:

LOL

 

Thanks. I'm here every night this week through Friday. Ba-dum-tis. 🥁  

[Jokeyman123]

One more question. If I modify any other DSP effect-say the phaser-from the factory settings-where does this modified DSP end up being saved? Brad, I think the modified DSP setting must saved with a tone? Most keyboards that allow for changing a specific DSP set of parameters require that the DSP is saved as a "stand-alone" effect, to be addressed by any tone, in a global sense. In other words, if I pick a brass ensemble tone, or a string tone, or any other-do I need to edit the DSP I wish to use with that tone as part of the tone's editing functions, and save it as a new tone? A little different than I'm used to, but that would work fine. I couldn't find an explanation in the manual. It may be in there somewhere, but like matching my socks sometimes, I didn't see it.

[Brad Saucier]

Yes, each tone can have it's own custom DSP settings.  It's done by editing the tone and saving it as a user tone.

[Jokeyman123]

Got it. thanks again Brad.