USB-MIDI versus DIN-MIDI (Discussion thread)

[mike71]

It's a thend that other manufacturers are following.

 

Warning engineer talking ahead. I think that adding a MIDI interface hardware  it's more than few cents, there are two midi connector, an optocoupler and maube a couple of resistors, you also have to use a pair of pins of the microcontroller and lose an UART. A n USB-MIDI port is needed and I suppose that if one is tight on pin count this could be another problem.

 

And the elephant int the room for MIDI-DIN is that since Windows 7 if one has an MPU-401 compatible sound board in their PC the esiest way to use it is to onstall Linux, disable PulseAudio and install Jackd (no kidding: my PC has a C-Media CMI8768 PCI Audio sound chip and the Windows 7 driver is only for audio part, not MIDI part) and most USB-MIDI cheap cables are problematic at least. 

 

I agree that other manufacurers are wors at this, because it's possible to find stage piano in the price range of the px-560 with only USB-MIDI

 

 

[sslyutov]

I like the comments about other manufacturers! 

MPU-401 is a Roland standard   (Actually the most of computer sound cards are based on Roland and Yamaha chips)

 

Talking about the sound card on PC - There is another feature missing on Casio USB-MIDI (at least on PX). It is USB-Audio, which also serves as an external sound card for a computer.

 

[sslyutov]

5 hours ago, mike71 said:

It's a thend that other manufacturers are following.

 

Warning engineer talking ahead. I think that adding a MIDI interface hardware  it's more than few cents, there are two midi connector, an optocoupler and maube a couple of resistors, you also have to use a pair of pins of the microcontroller and lose an UART. A n USB-MIDI port is needed and I suppose that if one is tight on pin count this could be another problem.

 

And the elephant int the room for MIDI-DIN is that since Windows 7 if one has an MPU-401 compatible sound board in their PC the esiest way to use it is to onstall Linux, disable PulseAudio and install Jackd (no kidding: my PC has a C-Media CMI8768 PCI Audio sound chip and the Windows 7 driver is only for audio part, not MIDI part) and most USB-MIDI cheap cables are problematic at least. 

 

I agree that other manufacurers are wors at this, because it's possible to find stage piano in the price range of the px-560 with only USB-MIDI

 

 

"it's possible to find stage piano in the price range of the px-560 with only USB-MIDI." Which one?

[Chandler Holloway]

4 hours ago, sslyutov said:

I like the comments about other manufacturers! 

MPU-401 is a Roland standard   (Actually the most of computer sound cards are based on Roland and Yamaha chips)

 

Talking about the sound card on PC - There is another feature missing on Casio USB-MIDI (at least on PX). It is USB-Audio, which also serves as an external sound card for a computer.

 

 

I would also really like to see USB Audio output as a feature on our high-end gear. I suppose the assumption is that potential buyers interested in the more advanced units are likely to already have a separate dedicated audio interface for using in the studio.

 

I think all the Privias aside from the PX-160 offer .wav audio recording directly to flash drive, so if you don't have an interface, you could always just save your piano recordings to USB and then transfer them to your DAW afterwards. The "Audio In" 1/8" jack on the back panel comes in handy for this. The signal that gets sent through the Audio In is not saved to .wav recordings made with the onboard audio recorder, so if you want to play along with the mix in your DAW for timing purposes, you can run the audio from the headphone jack on your computer into the Audio In on the keyboard and hear the backing tracks. The .wav file that you end up with will only be your piano performance, which you can then drop into the mix by importing from your flash drive.

 

This is an extra step in the recording process, sure, but if you're really strapped for cash and can't afford a separate audio interface, you can still make do with just the onboard audio recorder.

[mike71]

5 hours ago, sslyutov said:

"it's possible to find stage piano in the price range of the px-560 with only USB-MIDI." Which one?

The Yamaha DGX doesn't have MIDI-DIN, so the Yamaha P125 are two models that don't have MIDI-DIN. 

I have checked the prices now and you could fint them at a discount so they now cost less than a PX-560 - they're in the PX-360 price range.

 

[mike71]

5 hours ago, sslyutov said:

 

Talking about the sound card on PC - There is another feature missing on Casio USB-MIDI (at least on PX). It is USB-Audio, which also serves as an external sound card for a computer.

 

This is an useful option espiecially when the keyboard has speakers, especiaaly because USB cable, compared to DIN-MIDI ones could cause ground loops and related noises. 

And of coures if one is using a tablet or a smartphone, normally their audio out isn't great.

 

 

[Jokeyman123]

OK-just some clarification needed.  I have been wondering why my usb to midi din cables don't work with Windows XP, 7 etc. for data transfer and I think Mike you solved my problem. Apparently, the standard Windows usb 2.0 driver is only for usb audio, it will not recognize or transfer midi data. This makes sense as looking at device manager I see the USB device drivers are listed as "audio". I did not put this together until recently. This explains why certain older equipment with din connectors will not be recognized from the computer usb/midi din connection cable. I can for example connect the Korg microKontrol to my software and its editor with its usb port to the computer usb port, but not with its din connectors and the usb/midi din cable. And unless I am missing something even the Korg driver is on;ly meant for the usb side of the microkontrol. Now "class compliant" equipment such as all the recent Casios don't seem to have this problem. I am able to connect any of the Casios (XW-P1, PX350, PX560) to the computer with either the midi din/usb cable or the straight usb to usb cable, without any kind of Casio proprietary driver. Now when I try to connect an older Yamaha QY100 with din connectors and no usb, using the midi din to usb cable for computer access, there is nothing happening and this explains why which has stumped me no end. And since the Yamaha drivers on their website will only provide data through the usb port, and the Windows usb 2.0 driver is only for audio, I think it becomes clear why I can't get this to work, even though the cable is recognized and windows installs their drive.  Without a separate driver specifically designed for mid data through a brnaded usb/midi din cable such as  Edirol, Roland, and others no love happening. The QY works great though connected to any of the Casios, since I can go straight to midi din for both. Sometimes I miss my kazoo.

[sslyutov]

1 hour ago, mike71 said:

The Yamaha DGX doesn't have MIDI-DIN, so the Yamaha P125 are two models that don't have MIDI-DIN. 

I have checked the prices now and you could fint them at a discount so they now cost less than a PX-560 - they're in the PX-360 price range.

 

1

Both  DGX and P125 are far below the price point of PX560.

(I am sorry but how can you compare PX and DGX) DGX is a toy in terms of sound and keyboard action vs PX ( subjective opinion :) .

I could understand if you compare it to Roland HP-60. Which does not have DIN MIDI (but this more is an exception from the common practice than a trend)

There is a good reason why HP does not have MIDI-DIN.
It introduces pretty unique built-in features such as blue-tooth MIDI, blue-tooth audio, blue-tooth turning pages with a pedal, and blue-tooth communication with apps. 
In the same price range, other Roland devices have MIDI-DIN interface. Some of them even have two MIDI outs

The bottom line, I do not think that there is any trend for getting rid of the MIDI DIN interface.

 

[sslyutov]

31 minutes ago, Jokeyman123 said:

Now when I try to connect an older Yamaha QY100 with din connectors and no usb, using the midi din to usb cable for computer access

3

What does it mean? 

MIDI(5pin) on one side of a cable and USB-A on the other?

[sslyutov]

8 hours ago, Chandler Holloway said:

 

I would also really like to see USB Audio output as a feature on our high-end gear. I suppose the assumption is that potential buyers interested in the more advanced units are likely to already have a separate dedicated audio interface for using in the studio.

 

I think all the Privias aside from the PX-160 offer .wav audio recording directly to flash drive, so if you don't have an interface, you could always just save your piano recordings to USB and then transfer them to your DAW afterwards. The "Audio In" 1/8" jack on the back panel comes in handy for this. The signal that gets sent through the Audio In is not saved to .wav recordings made with the onboard audio recorder, so if you want to play along with the mix in your DAW for timing purposes, you can run the audio from the headphone jack on your computer into the Audio In on the keyboard and hear the backing tracks. The .wav file that you end up with will only be your piano performance, which you can then drop into the mix by importing from your flash drive.

 

This is an extra step in the recording process, sure, but if you're really strapped for cash and can't afford a separate audio interface, you can still make do with just the onboard audio recorder.

I am not sure when and how we switched from a subject "controlling by external controller" to  "recording" 

If you are replying on my post - thank you for the reply!

I do not have problems with recording or any type of control of one device by another

[Jokeyman123]

To SSluytov-yes that is correct. I am referring to the typical usb to to midi din in/out cables prevalent from Yamaha, Edirol, Roland and the Chinese non-branded cables. These seem to work fine with the Casios that have midi din in/out ports, but not with older probably non class-compliant devices such as the Yamaha QY100. Might be a peculiar problem just with that device though. I will have to check with the Yamaha user group for the QY modules. And I am trying to help another user connecting his XW-P1 to the LMMS audio/mid software using a similar cable.

[sslyutov]

With UN ONE you will get MIDI USB communication with any device through MIDI DIN.

with adapters like UN ONE you do not get USB -AUDIO functionality.

[mike71]

7 hours ago, sslyutov said:

Both  DGX and P125 are far below the price point of PX560.

(I am sorry but how can you compare PX and DGX) DGX is a toy in terms of sound and keyboard action vs PX ( subjective opinion :) .

 

 

When at the end I bought the PX-5S I remember that the price of the DGX 660 was almost the same of the PX-560. 

On the other hand Yamaka makes some iPad apps to enhance the piano experience https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/smart-pianist-us/id1261382457?mt=8 and in this case for an iPad owner a midi-din port is not useful at all.

 

 

 

[mike71]

Some cheap usb midi adapter arem't capable to send correctly long sysex messages, so it's possible that if a keyboard uses long syses these are mangled in the way. Not so cheap adapter should manage longer sysex

[Brad Saucier]

I always recommend E-Mu Xmidi 1x1.  DIN-USB MIDI adapter cables with no brand name are definitely something to avoid.    

[Jokeyman123]

Mike-trying to stay on topic here re external midi controllers and the types of computer interfaces available-I did some more research on these cheap Chinese USB/MIDI din adapter cables and found a few unpleasant surprises (this is what I've been using with mixed results). My experience (and disassembling) agrees with many users who claim these are missing optoisolators (to prevent midi groundloops primarily) and a few other components that are included in most internal midi DIN circuits. The weird thing is that these cables seem to work with the Casios for computer connections, but not with any of my older non class compliant devices, and not too well with the Casios either, now I understand why. Sysex info is right up front for most devices to be seen by an OS and I have seen weird buffer "overflow" messages when using these cheap cables.

 

As a result, i just purchased a Midisport 2 x 2 interface to see if this gives me the ability to use my older equipment without usb ports in combination with my computers and my Casios.  And Brad-I just got your post as I was writing this one. I bought these a long time ago, before the truth was known and when the first interfaces were very expensive. After much frustration with computer/keyboard connection problems, I think I can agree, these cheap cables are apparently a big source of many midi communication errors and just plain non-functioning. I'll get some feedback oout here on the Midisport when I get it. I also had the EMu in my sights and the Roland Edirol. And I checked to make sure the Midisport was well-supported with drivers and it is. Thanks all for pitching in. And am I correct in guessing that when Windows installs its own driver for these cheap cables, it is installing a driver that will only function for audio? I researched the Microsoft webpags for info on this, looked at the software structure and apparently this looks to be right. No wonder these cables don't work for midi data, the midi data driver is not there if you are relying on Windows to install one with your (my) cheap Chinese USB/midi din adapter cable. And unless I missed it, there is no all-purpose USB Windows driver that provides midi data functionality with these cables, or any other.  One must rely on manufacturers for midi drivers, except for the newer Casios which don't need these. Older non-compliant Casios probably will need the additional midi data driver-and these are available on Casio's website last I looked.

[Brad Saucier]

I don't know about the other brands, but the E-MU cable is class compliant plug-n-play.  

[mike71]

1 hour ago, Jokeyman123 said:

Mike-trying to stay on topic here re external midi controllers and the types of computer interfaces available-I did some more research on these cheap Chinese USB/MIDI din adapter cables and found a few unpleasant surprises (this is what I've been using with mixed results). My experience (and disassembling) agrees with many users who claim these are missing optoisolators (to prevent midi groundloops primarily) and a few other components that are included in most internal midi DIN circuits

I have read some articles about it. I had bought a cheap MIDI-USB adapter, you could see the photos, that outside is the same as the cheapest ones but inside has the optocoupler, and seems to me that does not have problem with long sysexes. I used it with all my keyboards without problems. It used the generic driver, that is marked USB audio driver.

 

It's the same driver that Windows 10 uses when I connect directly the Privia via USB as you could see from the table below: I suppose that USB speakers is one of the weird things of Windows.

 

Unfortunately a no-name cable is always a risk, on the other hand I suppose that a brand name cable like the Roland or Yamaha one is sure it will work. 

 

Device Name	Description	Device Type	Connected	Safe To Unplug	Disabled	USB Hub					VendorID	ProductID	Firmware Revision	USB Class	USB SubClass	USB Protocol						Service Name	Service Description	Driver Filename		Device Mfg	Friendly Name	Power	USB Version	Driver Description	Driver Version	Driver InfSection	Driver InfPath	Instance ID	Capabilities
0000.0014.0000.002.000.000.000.000.000	USB Speakers	Audio	Yes	Yes	No	No					fc02	0101	2.50	01	01	00						usbaudio	@wdma_usb.inf,%USBAudio.SvcDesc%;Driver audio USB (WDM)	usbaudio.sys		(Audio USB Generico)	USB MIDI Interface	100 mA	1.10	USB Speakers	10.0.17134.1	USBAudio	wdma_usb.inf	USB\VID_FC02&PID_0101&MI_00\6&313b4703&0&0000	SilentInstall, SurpriseRemovalOK
0000.0014.0000.003.000.000.000.000.000	USB Speakers	Audio	No	Yes	No	No					07cf	6803	1.00	01	01	00						usbaudio	@wdma_usb.inf,%USBAudio.SvcDesc%;Driver audio USB (WDM)	usbaudio.sys		(Audio USB Generico)	CASIO USB-MIDI			USB Speakers	10.0.17134.1	USBAudio	wdma_usb.inf	USB\VID_07CF&PID_6803&MI_00\6&1e16a07&0&0000	SilentInstall, SurpriseRemovalOK

[sslyutov]

7 hours ago, mike71 said:

When at the end I bought the PX-5S I remember that the price of the DGX 660 was almost the same of the PX-560. 

On the other hand Yamaka makes some iPad apps to enhance the piano experience https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/smart-pianist-us/id1261382457?mt=8 and in this case for an iPad owner a midi-din port is not useful at all.

 

 

 

4

4

$800 vs $1200. 40% difference. I  understand that normally you get a discount. For Casio it can go up to 20%. But pretty much the same discount applies to Yamaha.

(in my experience I always get 15-20% when buying a brand new instrument - and that happened 6 times.)

 

There is only one Yamaha app (I am aware of) which actually requires a certain type of device to enable additional features (I am talking about MX series)

The rest of apps can be used with any devices (It is very likely that I miss something)

 

 

[sslyutov]

42 minutes ago, mike71 said:

Device Name	Description	Device Type	Connected	Safe To Unplug	Disabled	USB Hub					VendorID	ProductID	Firmware Revision	USB Class	USB SubClass	USB Protocol						Service Name	Service Description	Driver Filename		Device Mfg	Friendly Name	Power	USB Version	Driver Description	Driver Version	Driver InfSection	Driver InfPath	Instance ID	Capabilities
0000.0014.0000.002.000.000.000.000.000	USB Speakers	Audio	Yes	Yes	No	No					fc02	0101	2.50	01	01	00						usbaudio	@wdma_usb.inf,%USBAudio.SvcDesc%;Driver audio USB (WDM)	usbaudio.sys		(Audio USB Generico)	USB MIDI Interface	100 mA	1.10	USB Speakers	10.0.17134.1	USBAudio	wdma_usb.inf	USB\VID_FC02&PID_0101&MI_00\6&313b4703&0&0000	SilentInstall, SurpriseRemovalOK
0000.0014.0000.003.000.000.000.000.000	USB Speakers	Audio	No	Yes	No	No					07cf	6803	1.00	01	01	00						usbaudio	@wdma_usb.inf,%USBAudio.SvcDesc%;Driver audio USB (WDM)	usbaudio.sys		(Audio USB Generico)	CASIO USB-MIDI			USB Speakers	10.0.17134.1	USBAudio	wdma_usb.inf	USB\VID_07CF&PID_6803&MI_00\6&1e16a07&0&0000	SilentInstall, SurpriseRemovalOK

 

5

From the table above, it looks like Casio just changes the vendor ID and uses the generic driver.

This is common practice.