PX-S3000 Note "Twang"

[havingfun]

A Guitar Center store nearby finally got in a new stock of Casio PX-S1000's so I had a chance to compare the concert grand samples on their store keyboard with mine.  As suspected, the "twang" was the same for the three notes I have mentioned in earlier posts.  The store salesman was interested in my comparison experiment, so he came over to the keyboard to listen for himself and readily picked up on the unpleasant resonances.  He guessed it was too much tremolo, maybe from the "Acoustic Simulator"?  And to Mike Martin's earlier point, the twang is audible starting at least a second after the notes are played so long as the notes are sustained (either by holding the key down or depressing the sustain pedal).  Releasing the key quickly (no sustain)  eliminates the twang on my keyboard (all notes sounding great).  And as Brooster stated, the S3000  has very good sounding acoustic pianos on 84 notes, and I still find mine very enjoyable to play.

[Brad Saucier]

The phrase "analysis paralysis" comes to mind.  

[Ether667]

On 5/30/2019 at 6:00 PM, havingfun said:

 

Mike:  With my keyboard, Damper Resonance provides a beautiful "after tone" which sounds almost like a whispery echo in a large room after the key is struck.  This is in addition to the sustained note.  When I turn the Damper Resonance off, the sustain pedal still sustains the note as before, but the whisper is gone.  Neither Damper Resonance on or off effects the unpleasant "twang".  And by the way, all notes on my keyboard sound great with the sustain pedal not depressed, so apparently the samples of the 9 foot concert grand are indeed very good.

 

I feel like I am beating a dead horse here.  No one else is either hearing the sound I hear or if they are, are not annoyed with it.  Setting the Hall Simulator to N.Y. Club helps a little.  I can live with that.  The rest of the Concert Grand notes sound wonderful, particularly when sustained.  Thanks for your patience on this.

Thank you for this, I just googled to find out if I’m crazy and I’m not. (Unless we are both crazy?)

 

I use these keys a lot and it’s not a petty thing to complain about. It legit rings badly in my ears and drives me nuts. Perhaps the sound is “accurate” though it’s honestly intolerable to me and it’s frustrating. This piano is amazing in almost every way. I own a lot of synthesizers and forgive basically every minor issue I come across with them so it’s sorta embarrassing to admit that I’m bothered by something like this.

 

From what I’m reading, the EQing doesn’t help either and that it’s not just the onboard speakers that are the issue. The only thing I could think of is for CASIO to do secondary/tertiary recordings with different mics (maybe different pianos too?) and have the option to blend sounds on a key per key basis. Or if not, maybe an EQ option for a special key/custom range? An ability to pitch shift the samples from other keys? At this I’d make slight sound compromises just to eliminate it.

[Iz Goy]

On 5/22/2019 at 9:38 PM, havingfun said:

I have detected an unpleasant "resonance" or "twang" on several keys of my PX-S3000:  namely G2, G#2, and A2.  The "twang" only occurs with the sustain pedal depressed, and only occurs on 5 of the 28 piano tones (001, 002, 003, 005, and 006).  Unfortunately, 001 is the Grand Piano Concert tone which is mostly what I play.  The twang becomes audible about 2 seconds after the note is played, and lasts as long as the sustain pedal is depressed and the note plays.  It almost sounds like a slightly flat version of the note played.  It is most evident when the notes are played through the on-board speakers, but can also be plainly heard through my monitor speakers and my good headphone amp/headphone combo.  It is very slightly worse when Hall/Reverb  is set to Berlin Hall, and very slightly better when set to N.Y. Club.   I have turned off all the Accoustic Simulator options (string resonance, damper resonance, etc).  Chorus Type and Brillance have no effect on the twang.

 

To address this twang, I have started to play with the DSP settings but I am skeptical  that this approach will work since the problem is audible on just 3 keys.  I am also a bit overwhelmed with the variety of DSP adjustment options and the difficulty in hearing what they change.   From my first dabble in DSP settings, I think the default DSP for Grand Piano Concert is Mono 1-Band EQ.  There are 5 other equalizer DSPs,  a Tone Control,  Piano Effect,  and Amp Cab DSPs that might be reasonable to substitute for the default and adjust.  By the way, I won't be mixing or recording with this keyboard so there will be no down-stream DAW or other electronics to adjust instead of the keyboard.

 

So is anyone observing the same "twang" on the keys mentioned above?  Is adjusting the DSPs a reasonable approach to improving the sound?  

Had the same issue on one note. Sounded like the piano that was sampled was resonating on that note. Returned it and got a replacement. No issues with the replacement one.  

[DeltaJockey]

This seems to be an occasional complaint by owners of any brand of digital piano. My impression when listening to your video, it sounds like you are triggering the higher velocity samples of each note which will sound harsher with more artifacts. Is your keybed velocity curve set too light? What happens if you play those same notes very softly?

 

If I hit the keys on my real acoustic grand in certain hard or clumsy ways, I can generate all sorts of overtones and artifacts. That's the skill of a good pianist on a well regulated action, to caress the keys in such a way that the hammers give a clean strike, with skillful application of the damper.

This is all done for you on a digital piano!

I often don't like the sampled pianos which have been tuned and recorded with such precision, that they sound clinical and sterile, they really miss the organic reality to me. I even need to play a digital piano with all the action release samples turned up high so I feel at home. Digital piano samples with real artifacts when striking the keys with high velocity like this appeal to my sense of authenticity, and remind me to play with skill and gentle grace like on my acoustic.

[Jokeyman123]

Well said, many that are growing up with only digital pianos don't seem to understand this, glad you said it.  I've mentioned before here, even with the best of the digitals, there still seems to be a lack of expansiveness that I've only heard on a good grand-the Casios come very close to this quality but all digitals seem 'compressed" to me-a good grand can create the impression of being very "small" or "huge" in sound with the right playing technique. Somehow I don't hear that expansiveness with any digital-it has everything to do with the plain physics of it-probably one of the most difficult achievements-to make an electronic equivalent of a massive wooden structure and harp-combined with the sheer acoustic resonance of all this-I could hear entire orchestras when I played the Steinways regularly with all the harmonics interacting-an illusion maybe-but it was pretty unforgettable listening to that wash of sound coming back at me with the open lid of even just an 8-foot grand, i never played an eleven.No wonder concert players can practice 8 hours a day and not get tired of it!  Casio has done about as good a job as any digital I've played..Just my 2 cents.

[Dr Livingstoned]

Ether667 and all others noticing this problem. You are not crazy 😂
I also stumbled upon this problem where a irritating  high tone is heard when striking the 2nd F, G or A on the px-s3000.

 

I tried on another PX-S3000 with same results. I also compared to yamaha and roland and an accoustic piano.
They have the same "twang" or metallic tone but not even half as loud as the casio.
I know at lease one person selling the px-s because of this.

 

I wish there was a way to reduce it a litte.  The best I came up was :

- Reduce brilliance & reduce touch response or choose the GM piano

 

I started a thread (because I missed this one) ., and it surprised me almost  no one responded to it.
Or is it maybe that our ears are more sensible to high tones ?

 

https://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/topic/20662-strange-ringing-sound-when-playing-low-f-or-f/#comment-73365

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Dr Livingstoned

[genesis1]

Hi, I know this is an old post. I came across it by chance. I have the same keyboard and same problem. You cant really record it very well for other people to hear, but you can sure hear it through headphones. Its an awfull flat discord note that clashes with the others when your playing. It also depends on the tune you are playing but its definately there. I think its a bad sample of certain notes played together. 

Did you ever find a cure?

Its really annoying. Ive not been impressed by the onboard piano samples either, especially after now using midi samples on my Mac. They make the casio pxs 3000 samples sound cheap. 

[klever_klavier]

On a Px-360M and running on the Mono line out to a Bose stick. The twang is VERY pronounced when I touch the sustain pedal. I've tried tweaking every setting on the keyboard. It sounds as if the resonant frequencies added by the pedal are all a few cents sharp of the main pitch. Driving me nuts. On-board speakers no problem. If I swap to the headphone out it is much better. 

[Brad Saucier]

Does everyone realize the very real metal strings on a real piano makes the very same "twang" sound?  Wether you hear or not depends on your listening and playing conditions.