Editing MIDI Files

[DaveMcM]

I must be missing one or more steps here. I've loaded a SMF from a USB drive into the PX-560 and selected it from the MIDI Recorder. Then go to MIXER, change the tones and volumes in Port C, then press and hold Store and press MIDI Play button. "Completed" appears in the display confirming the procedure. To test if it worked, I selected another song, played a little bit of it and then reselected the song I just edited. No go, the original GM tones are still there.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Dave

[DaveMcM]

A thought... Is it possible that the System Track has to be selected prior to editing/storing a SMF as described on page EN-60 of the users manual (as I described above)? I'll try that once I'm back at the instrument.

[Brad Saucier]

It's possible each track of the file has GM program changes written in them at some point.  The header overwrite function on the PX-560 won't be able to edit those.  You would need to use an external editor.

[DaveMcM]

That makes sense and I should have thought of that myself since the PX-560 System Track contains all tone assignments for the MIDI Recorder songs. Thanks Brad.

 

Best Regards,

 

Dave

[Tsquare]

On 4/29/2019 at 2:10 PM, Tsquare said:

I may have found a solution for when the system track seems to be corrupted on a particular midi or ZMF recorded performance.  By corruption, I mean the tones and/or the settings (i.e. volume, delay, etc.) in the mixer won't stick to the header in the system track despite saving them per store+midi button.  I've been having this problem on a bunch of my recordings and have been trying everything to resolve.  The trick that worked for me was to record something new (just a few notes, gibberish) to an empty track with a new tone .  Then you can set mixer settings on the actual tracks you want and rewrite/save the header with store+midi button and it should stick this time.  I then mute the added gibberish track in the mixer or midi menu.  You may be able to clear the gibberish track entirely after the fix, but I haven't experimented with that yet.

I was having an issue with my latest upload of Bryan Adams Run to You cover.  The hexsynthcomp tone (on an individual track) would loose all it's delay (despite the mixer delay set to 127) when I would record a rhythm to the system track.  I also tried copying the hexsynthcomp track to a new track in the midi editor to no avail.  Adding the gibberish new track seemed to work.

[DaveMcM]

Thanks Tsquare. I'll give that a try and let you and anyone else interested if it is succesful.

[DaveMcM]

Unfortunately Tsquare’s little trick didn’t work for me. But I still thank him for the idea. I guess it’s time to pull out the old PowerTracks Pro CD I have stashed away and go to work deleting the program changes for all of the tracks. What fun.😉

[Jokeyman123]

I never noticed this-this is a real problem, I'd even call this a "bug". Even when I delete the "system track"-even when I change and save the mixer settings, whether I save it as an .smf or even the PX560 Casio proprietary .zmf song recorder song-it always switches back to the GM soundbank sounds, and I'm not sure why this is so. I am guessing (unfortunately) even if you remap all your bank change messages in software, you may have the same problem. I'm glad you pointed this out. I would think that, as most Casios do not allow editing of standard midi files internally, only the proprietary Casio "song recorder" song allows for this-that if I saved the midi file as a ".zmf", edited and saved the mixer settings, the saved file would retain those bank change messages, but as far as I've tried to, it isn't happening, unless I've missed something. So something is saving the bank changes to remain as GM bank settings for any kind of midi file, and when I deleted the system track, tried saving and loading both .smf and Casio .zmf songs after changing tones that were not G tones, still reverted back to the GM tones. This does not happen when I've created songs with the song recorder saved as a .zmf. Maybe we need Brad or Mike to weigh in on this one, i think it is a serious bit of bug, and I'm the only one who discovered what has been so far, the only other bug re the drumkit editing when used for recording, but that's another post. I'm wondering now, does the MZ-X500 do this as well? MZ-X users might want to know this.

[Brad Saucier]

It's not a bug.  The PX-560 is simply not capable of editing program changes in standard midi files.  The PX-560 does not include an event editor feature.  MZ-X500 has an event editor.  On there, it's possible to edit any program change events as well as any other MIDI event.  

[DaveMcM]

4 hours ago, Brad Saucier said:

It's not a bug.  The PX-560 is simply not capable of editing program changes in standard midi files.  The PX-560 does not include an event editor feature.  MZ-X500 has an event editor.  On there, it's possible to edit any program change events as well as any other MIDI event.  

 

I agree that it is not a bug. An oversight maybe. Consider this; the fact that you can load a SMF into the internal memory, and then following the instructions in the manual on how to change and store Mixer settings, it seems as though it should be possible to make permanent tone changes. So the oversight is nothing more than a required extra paragraph in the manual to explain why this can't be done. As you mentioned, a SMF will have program changes in each track header and since the PX-560 stores that information in the System Track it makes sense that what I was trying to do won't work. No fault of the PX-560. On the other hand, it does seem like the design team could have realized that it would be normal practice to load a SMF and want to utilize the far superior sounds in the instrument rather than the inferior GM sounds. Not complaining though. It is still a fine instrument. And I know it would require a lot of wishful thinking that an O.S. update could come to add the ability, but it would sure be nice. With that in mind, if in fact all tone assignments are contained within the System Track, adding an edit function that would simply strip out MIDI program change messages from tracks C/1-16 with instructions to edit/store tone changes as described in the manual prior to using the function, this would be extremely helpful. Of course if additional PC messages were contained further along in the tracks, they would be lost but most SMF's don't typically do that. On the other, other hand, if I'm the first person to actually bring this issue up, as surprising as that would be to me, as Rosanna Rosanna Danna used to say... "Never Mind".

[Jokeyman123]

You all missed a point I tried-once I loaded an .smf-standard midi file-I then re-saved it as the Casio proprietary .zmf "song" file, which is as far as I can tell-can be edited internally-at least in a limited way-the mixer settings-which I guess may not be considered a part of the song file I saved-can be edited, and tones can be changed and played that way. I've done that and it works, as lon as I saved my original arrangements as a .zmf-Casio song file, not standard midi file.

 

So the remaining baffling part for me is this-when I save that .zmf-the one that was originally an .smf with the changes I've made to the mixer-tones, pan , levels etc. apparently somehow the original settings from the original .smf file are restoring themselves even as a .zmf, even after I have used the store/play function first-and even if i delete the system track-my newly modified midi file, edited and saved as a .zmf reverts back to the same settings. I guess what is happening  is that the mixer settings, with changes to tones, pan, etc. are not part of the song file? But then how are these settings being saved when i start a new .zmf song file, change mixer settings and re-save-then my changes are saved with the song (at least it looks that way).  and then, if these settings are not being saved in the system track-where are these being saved? Brad, any further clarification? 

 

 I know, I ask the hard questions and as Dave said, maybe this isn't that important, but it is confusing in terms of operating functions-then again, after over a decade, i think i finally understand how to use most of the functions of my old Equinox, and i still am baffled by FM programming with the SY77 which again I've studied for years!!!!!!  a kazoo is so much easier.

[DaveMcM]

Could you clarify the first paragraph? Are you saying that you loaded a SMF (that had program changes on each track), re-saved it as a ZMF, and then were able to make Mixer changes including tone changes? And you were able to save and re-load the ZMF and your changes were retained?

 

The cause of the issue I am having is that the PX-560 apparently only stores note data in the individual tracks. All other information, tone selection, volume, effects send, etc. is stored in the System track. So going through the process of making Mixer changes to a SMF and pressing the Store and MIDI> buttons is not going to make a difference during playback because the program change(s) within the SMF tracks override the System track data. At least that seems to be what is going on.

 

P.S. I once had to program a Kazoo sound for a customer on a DX-7.

[Jokeyman123]

Alot of FM sounds end up in kazoo-land if you don't know how to program FM!!!!

 

 Re the 1st paragraph-unfortunately I came up with the opposite result. I loaded a standard midi file. Then I saved it as a .zmf (Casio proprietary song recorder format-which on all my other Casios with song recorders, allows for some editing that is not available loaded as an .smf standard midi file. I did this, thinking I could now edit tones, save the changes from the mixer screen for that loaded .zmf song file using the "store"/play button and now i will have an arrangement that uses the other tones, not the GM tones I selected. So far so good-that worked as I expected it to.

 

Now the catch-after saving that .zmf song file, loading it onto my thumb drive-and re-loading it into the song/midi recorder-bam-all the changes I made reverted to the GM tones, as If I had never changed anything. What I did not try-and I will-was  recording a blank "pass" on the system track once I edit my tone changes, save this whole conglomeration as a .zmf, and see if that works. Theoretically this should save those edits in the ZMF file. This was pretty complex to do at all, and since I know the system track does store everything you describe-whether in a midi (smf) file or Casio song (zmf) file, maybe that was the missing piece, as in this earlier experiment I deleted the system track completely thinking this would wipe any header data in the smf file and eliminate the bank change messages to allow for selecting new tones with new bank messages. (EEssshh, getting complex here). In other words, my new ZMF file did not have a system track at all.

 

If that works-that is recording a "dummy" system track to record my mixer edits including tone changes after I make all my edits and save it,  I'll check later this evening-might save you (and me for editing  a huge collection of midis I have saved over the years) the trouble of converting every tone in every arrangement and track with software. Would be quicker being able to do this completely "self-contained" with the PX560. ZMF files are typically no larger than smf, I'm sure the PX560 would have no problem storing as many of these as standard midi files. I have around 12 mutitrack arrangements in internal memory at any time, and doesn't seem to cause any slowdowns. 

[DaveMcM]

19 hours ago, DaveMcM said:

it would be normal practice to load a SMF and want to utilize the far superior sounds in the instrument rather than the inferior GM sounds.

 

After thinking about what I said in the above quote, while not a bug per sea, the issue I am experiencing described in my OP, really should not be the case. Realizing that the PX-560 has been around for a while, there has got to be a good number of people who have loaded SMF's only to be disappointed with the results of the antiquated GM soundset. Several years ago, Casio developed a utility called SMF Convertor for models that are only compatible with ZMF's. I know the possibility of an operating system update to solve this issue is unlikely. However, possibly a utility could be introduced that would accept a SMF, strip program change messages, etc. from each track and place them in the System track, choosing appropriate tones for each track based on the GM counterpart while still having the option to edit the tone selection. The resulting file saved as an ZMF which would allow further editing within the PX-560 if desired. Any chance Mike Martin could chime in on this?

[Jokeyman123]

Sorry Dave, I did not have a chance to try the editing as I said with a ZMF file and the system track to save the edits. I will today and let you know-or if you try it yourself, let me know if that works. I will also test to see-if I can get the ZMF file to save the tone changes-can it be "reverse engineered"-saved as an smf midi file, and will the tones stay the same as the ZMF?

 

There is a programmer here who has done extensive work creating a software program that modifies saved autorhythms, not the Casio SMF converter-don't know if he could create this type of software tool. I can't program at that level and Casio will not release the code for certain operating system features I'm sure.  What still trips me up here-since the save function is supposed to save all the mixer settings-why is it still reverting the bank change messages to the GM soundset? There must be something in the operating system that is automatically doing this-beyond user control. And Mike does weigh in as do Brad and Joe Muscara, but I'm not sure they can solve this problem, it might need to go to japan to solve this one, if it can be solved.

[DaveMcM]

I haven't had a chance to try it either. But unless program changes are filtered out of individual tracks during the save to a ZMF, I don't hold much hope for this working. Once I get the chance to remove program changes from a SMF using an external sequencer program and resave as a SMF, then load it into the PX560, I'll know for sure that this is the culprit. I'll let you know how it goes. Then again, I'm not really sure if a SMF can be saved with no program changes at all. I'll find out soon though.

[Brad Saucier]

Dave, can you attach the MIDI file you're working with?  I'll look at it and see what I can do.

[DaveMcM]

22 minutes ago, Brad Saucier said:

Dave, can you attach the MIDI file you're working with?  I'll look at it and see what I can do.

Sure, I'll do that as soon as I get home form work this evening. I have a whole slew of MIDI files and have tried editing several of them with the same results.

[DaveMcM]

Going back to the idea that tracks 1-16 on Port C contain program change information that is overriding the System track tone assignments. If this is true, then the PX-560 has the ability to respond to program changes on those tracks. Then why is the PX-560 limiting the tone selections to only the General MIDI soundset?

[Jokeyman123]

Still confused regarding how the PX560 saves its recordings and mixer settings, but I think I solved the smf mid problem.

 

I loaded a typical midi file-not Casio ZMF. I then deleted the system track, leaving all other tracks intact. I then changed the tones-selected all non-GM tones using the mixer settings. Finally, I re-recorded the now blank system track-as a "dummy" track-no instrument parts, no auto-arranger parts-set the tempo first, then recorded that track as the other tracks played. This seemed to work so far. I did not attempt to save this modified smf to the thumb drive, so I'm not sure if that would make any difference. I did switch around-selected a few other internal recorded arrangements, played those, then re-loaded my original smf with the changes I saved and it kept those tones. I did not bother to use the Casio zmf song recorder format, as this simpler process seemed to work-again

1) delete the system track once midi file is loaded from the thumb drive.

2) Select all tones from the mixer-including user tones, non-GM tones etc. Re-record a "dummy" system track-make sure your tempo is set where you want it-the original tempo will be deleted with the original system track.

3) Re-record a new system track-simply to record the changes you've made to the tones, pan, effects etc.

 

One other peculiar thing I noticed, and I had not noticed until I started rtying to solve this problem....I did not need to "save" the mixer settings by hitting store and play buttons when I re-recorded the system track which actually did not seem to work, but when I switched to other arrangements-the changes I made (I think, it looks this way) were also changed in the mixer settings for my other arrangements-but only for tracks I had not used! As if the mixer settings are saved across all arrangements-all songs, if you did not use a particular track. for example-if track 3 in my arrangement of "jazz in G" has an instrument selected as part of that arrangement-it stays the same. but if track 4 is blank in that arrangement-if I switched the tone for track 4 in another midi arrangement-it now changes track 4 in jazz in G!!!  i've been recording with mine for 2 years and this is still confusing me. But i think i solved your original question at least, and found a new stumper for me, sorry!  

[Jokeyman123]

Dave-if you get a chance-to check this out-want to be sure I didn't miss something. and Brad, if you can weigh in on this, your input is always appreciated.  And if I am right about simply deleting the system track and re-recording a dummy track to keep cc intact, and enabling non-GM tones to be inserted into the midi file, it is a simple and if I must say so myself, an elegant simple solution, using only the PX560...nice! 

[DaveMcM]

2 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

Dave-if you get a chance-to check this out-want to be sure I didn't miss something. and Brad, if you can weigh in on this, your input is always appreciated.  And if I am right about simply deleting the system track and re-recording a dummy track to keep cc intact, and enabling non-GM tones to be inserted into the midi file, it is a simple and if I must say so myself, an elegant simple solution, using only the PX560...nice! 

 

As soon s I get home I'll give it a shot and let you know. Here's hoping! One question regarding your step 3. Is it correct that after loading the MIDI file, changing tones and recording a System track with the appropirate tempo, that you have to record the System track again or isn't that accomplished in step 2? Either way, thanks so much for spending time on this. I really appreciate it.

[Jokeyman123]

I don't re-record a new system track until I make all my changes-tones, dsp, pan, levels. And before I enter all those changes, I have already deleted the system track-because I discovered on all my standard midi files-the system track shows up as having data-as a track that has already been recorded, so that has to be deleted first. This system track must be where all the original midi file "header" information is located, right after you call it up with the song recorder. You will notice, after you select your smf file, and check the individual tracks-you will see an asterisk in the system track-this must be where the trouble is. Now I have a new setup, with my new tones, dsp or whatever other settings you want for your final arrangement-plus a blank system track. Now...I set the tempo in the midi recorder screen. Select record-system track, and while the rest of the arrangement is playing the system track is now (I am guessing and from my results) recording all the new settings in that track alone. And it seems to work-honestly I never noticed until you posted this-as I almost always save my arrangements in the Casio zmf song format-which I know allows for (at least initially) using non-GM tones with the mixer settings. 

 

As I mentioned before though-which is an entirely different problem but one you might run into-I have never been able to tell-the PX560 is a bit "transparent" in this regard...whether even the zmf files save all the mixer settings instantly as I input any of these. To be safe-I always use the "store/play" button function from the mixer screen to be sure those settings are saved with the arrangement. I wish I knew for certain, whether the mixer settings are saved as part of the arrangement, or if the OS is considering these settings separate from the actual song recorder song. It seems suspicious that one has to jump to the mixer screen to get the store function to work. I could never tell, and I'm hoping maybe Brad or Mike Martin might be able to weigh in on this. I think the Casio design is excellent, but I think in trying to keep the manual as simple as possible, some of these issues are left to the "end-user" to suss out. 

[DaveMcM]

On 6/5/2020 at 10:11 AM, Brad Saucier said:

Dave, can you attach the MIDI file you're working with?  I'll look at it and see what I can do.

BRANDY.MID

Hi Brad,

 

I have uploaded 3 files. Brandy is the one that doesn't seem to work right. I also included A Train in SMF and ZMF. This one did seem to hold the changes, and I saved it as a ZMF. Please don't spend a lot of time on this but if you want to try and analyze where the problem is with Brandy, (and it still may be me) go for it. And also why A Train seems to be just fine.

 

Thanks again,

 

Dave

ATRAIN.MID ATRAIN.ZMF

[DaveMcM]

Hi Jokeyman123,

 

As you will see from the post above, your solution seems to work for at least some of the SMF's that I have. A great big Thank You is in order. It's a fair number of button presses to get it done but at least it works. I'm not sure what the deal is with Brandy. If you feel like downloading that one and seeing if you have any luck, please let me know how it goes.

 

And be sure to check out the solo in A-Train. And let it be known far and wide that I didn't record any of that. Whew!

Edited June 7, 2020 by DaveMcM
Deleted unnecessary filler.