CT-X5000 is inferior to WK7600/CTK7200, from songwriting and sequencing perspective?

[daveivanov]

Hello, and happy new year!

I'm looking for a workstation keyboard for songwriting and sequencing.

 

My workflow would be:

1. Create bass and drum lines as rhythms.
2. Sequence these rhythms to a full-length song.
3. Record my live piano performance as MIDI on top of the rhythm track.
4. Plug a microphone and sing over the music.
5. Record the finished song as audio.

I've been reading the manuals and forum posts about these keyboards. While CT-X5000 seems to be a terrific entertainer keyboard and live instrument with the new AIX sounds and decent speakers, I have some doubts that I can't clear.

WK7600/CTK7200:

1. Has good pianos.
2. Full-blown MIDI recording, sequencing, editing features.
3. Built-in audio recorder.
4. Smooth integration with DAWs, either live or by importing MIDI files.

CT-X5000:

1. AIX is great, but the pianos don't sound way better than WK7600/CTK7200's AHL?
2. MIDI workflow is not as powerful as WK7600/CTK7200? I ran into several posts here suggesting it's not, but they don't specify exact reasons.
3. No built-in audio recorder. Wouldn't recording through unbalanced line outs cause audio glitches?
4. Importing generated MIDI files into DAWs cause issues due to excessive CC messages? Also some MIDI standards exist in WK7600/CTK7200 not implemented?
5. Some people mentioned lag and polyphony issues during live performances. Are they resolved?

Sorry for the loaded questions, but I'm on a tight budget and terrified of making a wrong decision. I'd love to hear your input.

[Brad Saucier]

For your workflow, WK-7600 is probably easier to use, however the sound quality of the CT-X5000 is much better overall.  The CT-X5000 can certainly do everything you want to do, except that last step of audio recording.  Keep in mind, all of the demo videos done by Casio for the CTX line was recorded from the analog audio outputs, so that gives you an idea of what they really sound like when recorded that way.  

[TomTPX560]

Hi daveivanov, after replying to your question in my thread about getting the WK7600, I noticed this thread.  Besides the 76 keys, the other main reason I chose the WK7600 was its ability to record audio files to an SD card.  Very handy indeed.  Especially since I don't do midi stuff.  I probably should learn it some day, but so far I've only worked with audio files.  So, built in audio recording to .wav file format was pretty much a necessity (for me) in choosing the WK7600, because, even though I can record from the line outputs and get really good recordings that way, it's a lot more of a hassle than just recording to the SD card.  The PX560 also has built in audio recording in .wav format, but to USB stick on the front which is even more handy.

 

 

[Chandler Holloway]

I would agree with previous assessments that the WK-7600 is more in line with your needs, since it has those extra songwriting features that push it into workstation territory. If you're ever planning to integrate with DAWs, the WK will definitely handle this smoother. It can send MIDI clock and start/stop messages, which is one huge drawback to the CT-X models. Plus, all those sliders for the mixer/drawbar organ sim give the WK-7600 great utility as a MIDI controller for controlling software instruments or other functions in the DAW with tactile controls.

 

I would say that if you're planning to lay a lot of compositional groundwork with Rhythm creation, the CT-X might have a slight edge on account of the access to 4-variation Rhythms. However, 2-variation Rhythm models like the WK-7600 can more directly benefit from creating .CKF Rhythms on a computer, as that format can only work with 2-variation Rhythms anyway. If you prefer a DAW-based MIDI sequencing workflow for the early stages of composition (so that the foundational elements of your track can be made "rock solid" with quantization, velocity editing, etc), you can do the initial Rhythm creation in a fully featured DAW as a MIDI sequence to make sure everything is super polished.

 

Then, you convert that MIDI sequence to a .CKF Rhythm using the IDES Rhythm converter (as outlined in the reference manual I linked above) and import it to your WK-7600. The WK-7600 will automatically convert the .CKF Rhythm to the more advanced and natively supported .AC7 format, which will open up three extra tracks (Perc, Chord 4 and 5) for you to fill in using the WK's onboard Rhythm Editor (if desired). Once your new and improved .AC7 Rhythm is completely developed, you can use it in your song composition as intended to finish out the track with the steps you outlined in your initial post.

 

That's how I would do it, at least. However, you could just as easily build Rhythms from the ground up in the Rhythm editor instead of doing the initial Rhythm creation in a DAW and then finishing it on the keyboard. I just think it would be a bit more convenient to go for the hybrid software/hardware process, because when I'm programming drum tracks and basslines, I really like being able to quantize/humanize the Rhythm and finely tune each note's velocity/duration in the convenience of a software environment. You can also do this through the onboard Rhythm editor, but I find it faster and easier to do it in a DAW because that's what I'm used to.

 

Please share some tracks here on the forums if you do end up going for the WK-7600. I think it's a very robust instrument for songwriters, and I'm interested to see the end result of a workflow that uses it as the centerpiece for actually recording completed tracks.

[Just Alex]

1. Yes, pianos are junk on X5000. So are junk woodwind/reed/other blow instruments, except brass. Organs, guitars, synths are very good - some of these sounds have quality of 3x pricier keyboards.

 

2. Anything more complex than playing something with one finger on X5000 is nightmare - idiots designed all these menus, sorry for my bad English

 

3. No, won't cause in case of proper cabling and setup.

 

4. No, playing complex midi files thru usb cable (not flash drive), causes issues.

 

5. No, they are not resolved yet.

 

[Brad Saucier]

I used the pattern sequencer on my CT-X5000 to create this backing rhythm and played piano over the top, recorded from the line out.  

 

https://youtu.be/fnyqV8bi1ts

[casio_style]

5 hours ago, Synthwave said:

Hello, I was in this group before. As just Alex comments, the casio ctx-3000-5000 is totally inferior to the wk line in terms of sequencing. On the other hand, it does not have an external midi clock either. Don't wait for future updates. The updates to this keyboard have not been relevant and do not even specify that they have corrected. They have never added any new features. The 3000 series has a very poor line output. There are several bugs already reported by users. My advice is that you wait for a new model or buy a wk.

I don't think the Casio CT X3000 sequencer is that much inferior to the WK7600 sequencer. The same 16-track sequencer with step editing. The difference on CT X3000 is that notes can be inserted only along the quantization grid, and not wherever you want, as on the WK7600. Also, some controllers, such as volume, pan, chorus, reverb, delay, selection of the instrument's timbre, are brought into a separate mixer for the song solo. On the WK7600, all these controllers must be assigned in the sequencer itself. As for me, it's more convenient for me in the mixer to do all this.
There are no midi clocks in both synthesizers.
And what's wrong with the line-level audio output on the CT X3000 synthesizer? I probably already recorded a couple of hundred songs, from this release, I did not experience any problems. If there are problems here, then the problem is in the audio cable or further in the diagram in another device.
I used google translator for translation, so errors are possible

[Chandler Holloway]

1 hour ago, casio_style said:

There are no midi clocks in both synthesizers.

 

7 hours ago, Synthwave said:

On the other hand, it does not have an external midi clock either.

 

The WK-7600 sends out MIDI clock and start and stop messages when auto-accompaniment is enabled. This is relevant to dave, as he plans to use Rhythms and auto-accompaniment as the foundation of his songwriting process.

 

 

[r_1159]

Go for Ctx3000. It does everything that CTX5000 does except mic in and is cheaper . 

[Jokeyman123]

You can spend 5-10 times more on a workstation-and it will still have flaws. I know, I have a few from Roland, to Korg to Yamaha you want a perfect instrument, buy a Stradivarius and learn the violin. Only run you about 100,000 bucks.  .

And your computer is not your friend-even the best most expensive-unless you buy a shielded desktop/laptop setup-you're lucky you aren't picking up messages from the space shuttle the shielding is usually so poor-the USB ground hum/ground loops and radio interference are your proof. Computer USB has left critical parts out of the circuitry which was required by the MMA for digital music communication between devices and computers-specifically to avoid these problems. optoisolators and UARTs were included in all midi din connection devices before manufacturers started going cheap and giving you only USB to your computer. and why you now have to pay so much for a midi "host" device, or a good quality USB/midi interface.  I've said it before-turn on a radio next to your laptop when you power it up-you will hear some very unusual sounds coming out unless your laptop/desktop is exceptionally well shielded, and isolated from AC line interference. Fluorescent and halogen lights are also an amazing source of noise problems-and USB cables were never designed for music data-these were designed for printers and other things that will never make music-unless you think the sound of throwing it down the stairs is music-it can be with the right auto-accompaniment. even the slightest loose connector on usb-will lose data and possibly let external radio or AC noise into your connection.   

[daveivanov]

Thank you very much for all the responses! But why most comments in this thread are deleted now?

[Jokeyman123]

I didn't notice any deleted posts. If you look at the group's guidelines-you can see there are a few restrictions-can't post things for sale for example-or recommend specific sellers-no politics, religion, other personal info for obvious reasons. Why a strong user group stays healthy-free of spam, "flaming" which is constant pointless tearing down of anybody or anything-seems fair to me to stay on point.  I am on other professional user groups who also use the same guidelines-this way any posts can stay geared towards helping others with difficult technical or musical problems, or just posting our musical ideas and compositions. Why we have the option of PM (private messaging) here if you need to directly communicate with someone, or looking to dump your Casio keyboard-I'll take it off yer hands!!! and getting repair and parts-across the industry has always been difficult-there is a very small margin of profit unfortunately for us-and why it looks like a "cottage industry"  of parts suppliers is growing, and unlike computers-most music keyboards across brands have no parts or user compatibility at all-with some exceptions.

 

You might be surprised at who you might be communicating with in these user groups-the industry experience and knowledge of some right here at Casio-is invaluable, and you might find it very difficult if not impossible to learn some of the info people have posted here anywhere else. I know at least one famous musician who posts here, with remarkable keyboard credentials and experience. Me for example 😛....when they let me out of the mothership once in awhile-no offense to George Clinton!!

 

[Brad Saucier]

3 hours ago, daveivanov said:

Thank you very much for all the responses! But why most comments in this thread are deleted now?

 

The USB discussion has moved to it's own thread.