Favorite Sound Source

[EB The Original Master]

Answer this poll on your favorite sound source from Casio keyboards 

[MasterFace222]

Mine is a tie between A² and HL.

A² mostly for the sounds, HL mostly for the functions.

[EB The Original Master]

4 minutes ago, MasterFace222 said:

Mine is a tie between A² and HL.

A² mostly for the sounds, HL mostly for the functions.

 

My favorites are AiX and A^2. AiX for the sound quality and A^2 for the song selection. 

[Ijomne]

Mine is a tie between A^2, AiX, and HL. First and last for the songs and second for sounds and rhythms.

[Jay C]

I answered AiX, that I have in the CT-S1, but I also like the "CD sound source" in my CT-370 (PCM Samples). AiR would come in second

 

[davis9754]

i like HL the most in terms of sound quality and song styles/rhythms

[Akshansh - Alex]

Casio is always worked and working to improve the quality of music.

 

From my site: I selected and I love AHL, MXi and AiX sound source.

 

But, all the sound source are very very nice according to its time. Now AiX is better but then AHL and the other sound sources are very nice.

 

I'm using CT-K7300IN (7200), CT-X9000IN (5000), MZ-X500, XW-G1 and XW-G1 which are all rounder in performance and it's quality.

 

AiX is more improved sound source which provides the High End sound. If you can look out other sound sources, the AiX source delivers a small frequency sound with large frequency and it is hearable and feels better then any other.

[Brockesound]

What is a good example for the AHL series keyboards to explore this sound source?

[Chas]

Casio also gave us Consonant Vowel (CV), as used in many of the very early Casios/ Casiotones.

 

There was also a small series of early Casiotones that used an unnamed synthesis based on Sine Waves (CT701, 601, 501, MT70 and CT1000P).

 

They also gave us the incredible mid 80s Phase Distortion (PD) synthesis that is still much loved and respected to this day. PD was further developed for the VZ range as interactive Phase Distortion (iPD).

 

Spectrum Dynamics (SD) was also another sound engine that they used in the late 80s.

 

And don't forget the Hybrid Processing Sound Source (HPSS) as used in the XW series of synths. 

 

I'm a big fan of the early Casio sound, but if I had to pick one it would be Phase Distortion because it is just so powerful, flexible and is still just as useful today as it was on release in 1984. I'm also impressed by HPSS in my XWs, as it has also proven to be flexible and powerful, and always deliver the goods when I need it.

[IanB]

@Chas I think it's a pity that they didn't move forward with PD. They went next with the VZ series which tried to be more "DX like" in programming and didn't catch on. OTOH a version of PD with real time parameter control and more flexible modulation would have been killer.

 

Come to think of it, that could be done now, or at least something sufficiently similar, without the massive expense of custom chips that was required in the 80s. Might be a possible "fan project"!

[Akshansh - Alex]

6 hours ago, Brockesound said:

What is a good example for the AHL series keyboards to explore this sound source?

Casio's popular CTK series keyboard are using AHL sound source to deliver it's high quality sound. AHL full form is "Acoustic & Highly-compressed Large-wave form"

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

I vote for multipulse squarewave (Casio VL-1 synth).

 

Of course also Consonant-Vowel and its successor SD was nice. The first PCM engine (classic SA-series) and its high resolution version "CD" (MT-540 etc.) included some freakish algorithmic synth sounds those don't exist in any later models.

Edited January 22, 2022 by CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler

[XW-Addict]

I was lot later in the game "ZPI" and "HPSS" , I do like AIR but I'm not sure if its AIR or the synth engine with it. 

[timbr]

On 1/22/2022 at 9:01 AM, CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler said:

Of course also Consonant-Vowel and its successor SD was nice.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is "SD"? 

Also, is there a listing of what (vintage) Casio keyboards had Consonant-Vowel/SD anywhere? 

Edited February 12, 2022 by timbr

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

SD = "Spectrum Dynamics" synthesis.

 

Basically it morphs between 2 blocky digital waveforms (stairwaves) and the output is additionally routed through an analogue VCF (voltage controlled filter) to change timbre. Except in HT-6000, there is only one VCF shared for all polyphony channels, so timbre of held notes changes when an additional note is played.

[timbr]

Thank you for the explanation. I hadn't noticed (sorry!) that Chas had already clarified the abbreviation "SD". Always nice to have more technical insight, though. 

 

@ All: 
My second question still stands: 
Is there a listing of what (vintage) Casio keyboards had Consonant-Vowel/SD anywhere? 
E.g. on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Casio_keyboards the type of synthesis is not mentioned.

 

Edit: 

Meanwhile I found that there is at least a list of Casio SD Synth keyboards (no idea how complete), apparently with major input (thank you!) from member CYBERYOGI: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casio_SD_Synthesizers

Edited February 12, 2022 by timbr

[pianokeyjoe]

Sadly, unless I get example models with each modern sound source type I am scratching my head on this one. Now had they put a list featuring the classic sound sources like Pulse wave, Consonant Vowel,Spectrum Dynamics,Phase Distortion,Interactive Phase Distortion, 8bit PCM, 12bit PCM and then put an iconic model beside each term, theeeeeen, I can choose lol! Btw, as I read @Chas comment here it dawned on me that the second generation of super drums keyboards I like to circuit bend so much(MT205,220,520,CT360,510)all used Spectrum dynamics sound source! How I know now? The circuit bend hacks! Most of the sounds matched the HT700! The MT65 and MT45 and even the MT52(first generation super drums) did not come even close to generating the uniquely HT700 sounds I was hearing and AM hearing from the MT205s/520s I have hoarded for years for circuit bending custom building synths out of. The main thing is those white noise, and metallic sounds I get. I will NEVER EVER look at Casio them same again since I hacked those keyboards! It is a mind altering, life changing kinda thing. Yes, Casio... Where miracles NEVER CEASE!!! Now as for my vote up above? What ever the CT-S1000V uses.

[Jokeyman123]

This is almost impossible for me to decide.

 

I learned Casio programming on the CZ's and it is still a unique model for sound creation.

 

AIR on my PX's is actually only part of the Casio sound modeling design-as it is pretty specifically used for the acoustic pianos unless I am mistaken.

 

I still own a PX575 which uses the older ZPI scheme for tones, and it is pretty impressive, even now compared to the newest workstations and digital pianos. and AHL-as on my CDP230 and CTK6200-while the acoustic pianos are not quite up to the AIR design, is still quite playable

 

. And whatever the XW is using-a combination from what I can see is imminently programmable from a sound designer point of view. Then there are the hex layers......I like all of these sound designs, for composition and solo playing. The monophonic model in the XW by itself is pretty deep.

 

Look at all the newer "retro" monophonic synths-the Behringers, Korgs, M-audio etc. that came out with VA mono synths recently-most do not have 3 oscillators to play with, but the XW does. How to choose-midi them all up and create incredible cacophony, er I mean music!

[Chas]

13 hours ago, timbr said:

@ All: 
My second question still stands: 
Is there a listing of what (vintage) Casio keyboards had Consonant-Vowel/SD anywhere? 
E.g. on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Casio_keyboards the type of synthesis is not mentioned.

 

 

 

Pre 1985, most of Casio's keyboards (MT and CT models) were Consonant Vowel. The exceptions appear to be:

 

VL-1/ VL-TONE - This uses a digital synthesis known as "Walsh Function". The other VL models also used this. 

 

CT-501/ 601/ 701, CT1000P and MT70 all used a Sine Wave based synthesis, the only models to do so.

 

1984 CZ101 - Phase Distortion synthesis as per all other CZ models and also the CT6500.

 

I've heard that the PT models also used Walsh Function but I'm not sure on this.  @CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler can you shed light on the PT models?

 

Spectrum Dynamics are: HT700, HT3000, HT6000, HZ600 (same as HT3000 minus speakers and accompaniment) and MT600 (a preset only SD keyboard that actual has the analogue filter inside just no way to access it without modification.)

 

The latter half of the 80s it gets less clear what exactly was being used in the "home" Casio keyboards. The SK series actually had some very good tones onboard, and they might be shared with other MT/ CT/ SD keyboards of the same era. Would make sense if they are all from the same generation.  

 

From the late 80s into the 90s it gets even more murky as there was a load of "Tone Bank" keyboards, then Casio finally named a sound source for their home keyboards and called it "IXA" for the CTK1000, but strangely never used that name on anything else (to my knowledge). 

 

Then you had unusual 90s models such as the VA-10 "Voice Arranger", the RAP-1 "Rapman" and the SK-60 "Say and Play" that I've no idea what they use,  but they do sound good.

 

Hopefully one day Casio will make a comprehensive and detailed list of all their keyboards showing what sound synthesis was used in them. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Chas

[giano]

with regards to the SD synthesis of the HT-series, my personal conclusion after hours of oscilloscope measurements is that it is also based on Walsh synthesis. I try to explain:

 

Every SD waveform is made of up to four "multipulse" components (derived by Walsh manipulation of square waves at different octaves).

Having four components allows the generation of more complex waveforms (eg 16 step sawtooth), compared to CV which seems to use only two.

 

For about half of the HT700/3000 waveforms, all such components follow an identical DCA ADRS envelope, so that the resulting waveforms are harmonically "static" over time - triangle, sawtooth, square, pulse wave and a bunch of other more complex multi-pulse waveformes are such examples.

 

For the other half on the other hand, the DCA ADSR envelopes of the individual components differ, and harmonic movement arises from the overlapping fade-in/fade-out phases. Controlling the DCA ADSR for each individual component is not possible on the HTs, but they are influenced by the overall DCA settings in kind of a combined way. So, working with dynamic SD waveforms mostly involves trial and error.

 

In addition, the HTs offer noise both as standalone and as part of some SD waveforms, allowing a broad variety of sounds despite the comparably low number of editable parameters.

 

 

 

 

 

[IanB]

On 2/12/2022 at 5:34 PM, Jokeyman123 said:

Look at all the newer "retro" monophonic synths-the Behringers, Korgs, M-audio etc. that came out with VA mono synths recently-most do not have 3 oscillators to play with, but the XW does. How to choose-midi them all up and create incredible cacophony, er I mean music!

 

In my view this is because the "traditional" subtractive analogue synth is a distinct instrument in itself, something I've always believed since the 80s. I think many people saw it as a failed attempt to sound like "real" instruments which was why the horrible abandonment of them after the dull, dull DX7 came to market, thankfully they were revived by the "Rave" movement. Analogue sounds- filter sweep, resonance, pulses and sawtooths, have their own special sound and people love that. I do get a bit irritated by the present tendency for analogue to fall into the "audiophile" style purist mindset sometimes, there's quite a lot of nonsense written about circuits that are just bog standard as if they contain some sort of magical elements but hey ho, at least they're being appreciated.

[Silvano Silva]

I believe it's Aix But they still haven't managed to extract their full potential.

Who knows, this sound engine will outperform on a keyboard with a superior Sound Card like the MZ-X

[Akshansh - Alex]

Processors are only manage the sounds and effects while storage is requires to handle out the samples.

 

From above discussion, it means the the Great Sound Chip is MXi Sound Source that MZ-X has? 

 

There is a great option to figure out for which chip is designed for which need.

MXi Sound Source is focused on delivering a rich round as much as possible.

AiX is designed to deliver a fresh experience of Acoustic sound.

 

From my experience - AiX sounds more naturally but the MXi sounds more Nicely 😊 for me.

 

With some enhancement and modification and with AiX the flagship line would be great... 

 

Even by the updates of MZ-X, it would be more nice too. 😊

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

Classic PT-series has the same sound engine like VL-1, i.e. one multipulse squarewave with linear volume envelope and LFO.

 

It may be that the idea of synthesizing timbres this way originated from Walsh (there was that Allen Organ patent lawsuit), but multipulse squarewave is not identical with Walsh. Layering multiple Walsh drawbars would still sum them with different volume levels, while within a multipulse (16 bit steps those each can be hi or lo) the steps always keep the same height (i.e. 1-bit signal of repeating 16 steps). I remember I read in a magazine(?) long ago an interview that Casio had invented multipulse squarewave coincidentally when they experimented with LCD control voltages for calculators (consisting of blocky 4 step (2-bit) waveforms) and noticed that they sounded like organ tones.

 

I also doubt that consonant-vowel or SD internally layers actual Walsh drawbars (which are a series of certain mathematically well defined special multipulses). It simply crossfades/morphs between 2 blocky waveforms (and than layers 2 or 4 of them having different preset analogue filters) to synthesize timbres. The internal basic waveforms were likely tweaked by ear and not planned to implement Walsh.

 

Walsh makes only sense when you want to be capable to systematically approximate all repeating waveforms by summing a high number of multipulses in the same manner like conventional drawbars sum sines (implementing the Fourier series).

[CYBERYOGI =CO=Windler]

On 2/14/2022 at 2:10 AM, IanB said:

Analogue sounds- filter sweep, resonance, pulses and sawtooths, have their own special sound and people love that. I do get a bit irritated by the present tendency for analogue to fall into the "audiophile" style purist mindset sometimes, there's quite a lot of nonsense written about circuits that are just bog standard as if they contain some sort of magical elements but hey ho, at least they're being appreciated.

 

I just started to experimented with an RTL SDR (software defined radio receiver based on a cheap TV stick - originally bought to examine EMF of sound toy chips through TEMPEST algorithms). Funny is how many strage powerful "analogue" noise timbres occur by tuning into AM on an empty (or FM) radio channel and reducing the reception bandwidth (dragging by mouse). That is really Star-Trek (original series) analogue synth stuff despite the hardware and filtering is digital.