What is happening at Casio

[anotherscott]

On 1/22/2019 at 5:17 PM, sslyutov said:

Talking about FA - it has 6 sound engines, humongous list of parameters, an extremely advanced sequencer editor, sampler built based on SP-404, 2000 sounds, axial download, 100% compatibility with Integra 7, great keyboard, etc. It is a piece of art (which I have traded in any way)

 

What are the 6 engines? I count:

 

* Supernatural Acoustic  (piano, tine and reed EPs, clav, organ, acoustic and electric bass, acoustic guitar, ensemble strings )  -- though I think you could make a case for the organ being its own engine

* SuperNatural synth (VA)

* PCM (everything else)

 

FA does not have 100% compatibility with Integra 7. The Supernatural Synth is compatible. Other than that, It has only a tiny fraction of the Integra's Supernatural Acoustic tones, and no way to load in the ones it doesn't have. It also doesn't have the Integra's HQ GM2/HQ PCM set.

 

ETA: the FA and Integra also have the same XV-5080 PCM sounds.

[sslyutov]

2 hours ago, anotherscott said:

 

What are the 6 engines? I count:

 

* Supernatural Acoustic  (piano, tine and reed EPs, clav, organ, acoustic and electric bass, acoustic guitar, ensemble strings )  -- though I think you could make a case for the organ being its own engine

* SuperNatural synth (VA)

* PCM (everything else)

 

FA does not have 100% compatibility with Integra 7. The Supernatural Synth is compatible. Other than that, It has only a tiny fraction of the Integra's Supernatural Acoustic tones, and no way to load in the ones it doesn't have. It also doesn't have the Integra's HQ GM2/HQ PCM set.

You can load Integra sound banks into FA. I did it. You can find a video about this "easter egg" on youtube.

[sslyutov]

I double checked it with specs

There are 7 types of engines

SuperNATURAL Acoustic (SN-A)

SuperNATURAL Synth (SN-S)

SuperNATURAL Drum Kit (SN-D)

PCM Synth Tone (PCMS)

PCM Drum Kit (PCMD)

GM2 Tone (PCM Synth Tone)

GM2 Drum Kit (PCM Drum Kit)

Integra has exactly the same list of engine types.

 

Compatibility with Integra:

17 out of 18 sound packages from  Roland Axial for Integra 7  can be loaded into FA.

http://axial.roland.com/category/integra-7/

 

 

Intergra7 is more advanced there is no question. 

 

Motional Surround is not present on FA.

Audio output is just by far more advanced on Integra.

 

 

 

 

 

[Shad0wfax]

45 minutes ago, sslyutov said:

You can load Integra sound banks into FA. I did it. You can find a video about this "easter egg" on youtube.

This is possible regarding the SuperNatural synth tones (SN-S), but not the SuperNatural acoustic ones (SN-A), as the FA lacks many of the SN-A rom waveforms of the Integra-7.

[anotherscott]

 

51 minutes ago, sslyutov said:

You can load Integra sound banks into FA. I did it. 

 

But did you load anything that used any of the SN Acoustic tones (or HQ PCM tones) tha didn't already exist on the FA? Because from everything I've seen, that is not possible.

 

Here's the info from Roland...

 

https://rolandus.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205492526-FA-06-FA-08-Importing-Tones-from-Integra-7-Backups

 

...but it's for axial downloads or Integra backups (which don't include the underlying factory waves/models). You can't get at the Supernatural Acoustic tones that are in the Integra. See:

 

http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=54525

 

Integra Supernatural Acoustic instruments unavailable on the FA include:

 

vibes

marimba

harp

sitar

accordions

harmonica

tympani

solo brass (trumpet, trombone, french horn, saxes, etc.)

winds (oboe, bassoon, clarinets, piccolo, flutes)

solo strings (violin, viola, cello)

elec guitar

glockenspiel, xylophone, tubular bells, steel drums

choirs

bagpipes

...plus the additional SN instruments that can load into the virtual expansion slots (ethnic tones, and more in the way of brass, winds, acous/elec guitars and bass, brass)

 

The FA does include XV-5080 versions of most if not all of these instruments, of course. But those aren't the same, the XV-5080 came out in 2000.

 

 

[sslyutov]

11 minutes ago, anotherscott said:

 

 

But did you load anything that used any of the SN Acoustic tones (or HQ PCM tones) tha didn't alady exist on the FA? Because from everything I've seen, that is not possible.

 

Here's the info from Roland...

 

https://rolandus.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205492526-FA-06-FA-08-Importing-Tones-from-Integra-7-Backups

 

...but it's for axial downloads or Integra backups (which don't include the underlying factory waves/models). You can't get at the Supernatural Acoustic tones that are in the Integra. See:

 

http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=54525

 

Integra Supernatural Acoustic instruments unavailable on the FA include:

 

vibes

marimba

harp

sitar

accordions

harmonica

tympani

solo brass (trumpet, trombone, french horn, saxes, etc.)

winds (oboe, bassoon, clarinets, piccolo, flutes)

solo strings (violin, viola, cello)

elec guitar

glockenspiel, xylophone, tubular bells, steel drums

choirs

bagpipes

...plus the additional SN instruments that can load into the virtual expansion slots (ethnic tones, and more in the way of brass, winds, acous/elec guitars and bass, brass)

 

The FA does include XV-5080 versions of most if not all of these instruments, of course. But those aren't the same, the XV-5080 came out in 2000.

 

 

I have never said it includes everything. Unavailable does not mean incompatible. 2000 vs 5000. it is obvious.

Integra supposedly includes virtually "everything"  Roland ever made.

"everything"

 

Thanks, guys for your criticism at least it made me look again through some specs.

[anotherscott]

4 minutes ago, sslyutov said:

I double checked it with specs

There are 7 types of engines

SuperNATURAL Acoustic (SN-A)

SuperNATURAL Synth (SN-S)

SuperNATURAL Drum Kit (SN-D)

PCM Synth Tone (PCMS)

PCM Drum Kit (PCMD)

GM2 Tone (PCM Synth Tone)

GM2 Drum Kit (PCM Drum Kit)

Integra has exactly the same list of engine types.

 

Those are categories of sounds, but they don't all represent different "engines" as people usually speak of it. PCM is PCM. The GM2 and PCM Drum sounds are still a function of the same PCM "engine." Tons of romplers (PCM) over the last 20+ years have had  drum kits and a GM sound set, no one ever said they had 3 engines. A different engine would be something that used different sound generating algorithms (something in addition to or instead of PCM sample playback), something functionally/operationally distinct.

 

As for Integra, here's the list from https://www.roland.com/global/products/integra-7/specifications/: 

 

 

SuperNATURAL Acoustic {but tons more instrument models than in the FA, with no way to get them into the FA}
SuperNATURAL Synth
SuperNATURAL Drum Kit
PCM Synth {include the XV-5080 set in the FA plus a HQ set which also does GM2}
PCM Drum Kit

 

So the two do have the same general categories of sounds (SN acoustic, SN synth, PCM including GM2), but not the same sounds, with some but not complete compatibility between the two platforms.

[anotherscott]

26 minutes ago, sslyutov said:

I have never said it includes everything. Unavailable does not mean incompatible. 2000 vs 5000. it is obvious.

Integra supposedly includes virtually "everything"  Roland ever made.

"everything"

 

Thanks, guys for your criticism at least it made me look again through some specs.

Our posts are crossing a bit. 😉

 

The only real issue I was trying to address was the "100% compatibility with Integra 7" assertion, which implied that you can get any Integra 7 sound out of an FA, perhaps that the limitation was only that you couldn't have them all at the same time (as you say, 2000 vs 5000 or whatever), but the two sound sets are more different than that... there are lots of individual Integra sounds that you simply cannot get out of (or convert over into) an FA. So if someone bought an FA assuming they could grab any sound they liked from a friend's Integra, they might find themselves disappointed.

 

BTW, even the Integra isn't everything, it's still missing a good bunch of Roland sounds! It has their "latest and greatest" sounds, and it has the classic XV-5080 sound set from 2000 (also in the FA), and it has the equivalent of the SRX cards (which are mostly also available as FA expansions). But there were other Fantom era sounds that are not in it. I also found that some VR-09 sounds are not in it, perhaps those were also from the Fantoms, I don't know. It's always something... 😉

 

[sslyutov]

20 minutes ago, anotherscott said:

 

Those are categories of sounds, but they don't all represent different "engines" as people usually speak of it. PCM is PCM. The GM2 and PCM Drum sounds are still a function of the same PCM "engine." Tons of romplers (PCM) over the last 20+ years have had  drum kits and a GM sound set, no one ever said they had 3 engines. A different engine would be something that used different sound generating algorithms (something in addition to or instead of PCM sample playback), something functionally/operationally distinct.

 

As for Integra, here's the list from https://www.roland.com/global/products/integra-7/specifications/: 

 

 

SuperNATURAL Acoustic {but tons more instrument models than in the FA, with no way to get them into the FA}
SuperNATURAL Synth
SuperNATURAL Drum Kit
PCM Synth {include the XV-5080 set in the FA plus a HQ set which also does GM2}
PCM Drum Kit

 

So the two do have the same general categories of sounds (SN acoustic, SN synth, PCM including GM2), but not the same sounds, with some but not complete compatibility between the two platforms.

To my knowledge, both products are built on the same platform.

The compatibility of FA with Integra packages was a surprise for everyone including Roland (  like they forgot to put restrictions on Integra packages vs FA). Seriously.

As it was discovered Roland quickly called it an easter egg. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shad0wfax]

The fact that the Integra-7 and the FA share the same synthesis engines doesn't necessarily mean that they can have the same sounds. To make it clear:

1) The "SuperNatural Synth" engine (SN-S) is a VA engine which does not depend on PCM samples stored in ROM. As long as the Integra and the FA share exactly the same VA engine, any possible SN-S sound programmed for the Integra can be reproduced by the FA, and vice-versa. It does not matter if we're talking of 2,000 or 6,000 or 1,000,000 different sounds.

2) On the other hand, PCM sounds and SuperNatural acoustic sounds (SN-A) rely on PCM samples stored in ROM, which are used as oscillators (the main component of the sound). In order to play the same sound, you need the same PCM waves. There is no way for the FA to play SN-A Integra-7 sounds based on wavefors which are not present in the FA's ROM. It just cannot be done, period. Tha Integra will always have a much greater set of SuperNatural acoustic sounds than de FA. I know because I thought about the possibility of selling my Integra-7 when the FA was launched (mainly because of the keys and the bigger screen), but I rejected the idea when I realized that I would loss most of the great SN-A sounds. I don't care much about the PCM HQ GM2 set, as I think that the SRX expasions are superior.

[Silvano Silva]

On 12/4/2018 at 4:04 PM, petersohn said:

In one of the topics you wrote a few months back that there will be one more update to the MZ-X series and the sounds from the Aix series will be added. Update 1.60 appeared but there were no new sounds.  I understand that this key will not be developed anymore because its production is over.

One of Casio's biggest mistakes with MZ-X was to put Sounds East and West in the same product.
There was an overload which eventually took up system resources.
If you were to separate these two types of sounds and given the option of the user to install whatever you want the part would have gained precious System resources

[sslyutov]

On 2/7/2019 at 1:24 AM, Shad0wfax said:

The fact that the Integra-7 and the FA share the same synthesis engines doesn't necessarily mean that they can have the same sounds. To make it clear:

1) The "SuperNatural Synth" engine (SN-S) is a VA engine which does not depend on PCM samples stored in ROM. As long as the Integra and the FA share exactly the same VA engine, any possible SN-S sound programmed for the Integra can be reproduced by the FA, and vice-versa. It does not matter if we're talking of 2,000 or 6,000 or 1,000,000 different sounds.

2) On the other hand, PCM sounds and SuperNatural acoustic sounds (SN-A) rely on PCM samples stored in ROM, which are used as oscillators (the main component of the sound). In order to play the same sound, you need the same PCM waves. There is no way for the FA to play SN-A Integra-7 sounds based on wavefors which are not present in the FA's ROM. It just cannot be done, period. Tha Integra will always have a much greater set of SuperNatural acoustic sounds than de FA. I know because I thought about the possibility of selling my Integra-7 when the FA was launched (mainly because of the keys and the bigger screen), but I rejected the idea when I realized that I would loss most of the great SN-A sounds. I don't care much about the PCM HQ GM2 set, as I think that the SRX expasions are superior.

4

I still believe the mixing of two subjects into one is not right.

 

I would not trade Integra for FA.  That was a great decision to keep Integra (Do you use a wireless connection with iPad to access settings? ). The audio output standard of Integra is much higher. (What keyboard did you get?)

The content stored within ROM is static (with exception of the firmware update) but this content is extendable (please correct if this statement is wrong).

The extension packages are compatible with both devices. As far as I understand it is possible to load any external PCM wave on both devices.

So, FA is limited(vs Integra) but compatible.

 

[anotherscott]

24 minutes ago, sslyutov said:

The extension packages are compatible with both devices. As far as I understand it is possible to load any external PCM wave on both devices.

 

 

There is no way to load any external PCM into an Integra. It can use its main set, and it can use any of the expansions that are built into the unit, but there is no way to load new ones.

 

The best acoustic instrument sounds of the Integra are its Supernatural Acoustic tones. The FA has a very small subset of the ones in the Integra (just piano, EPs, clav, organ, basses, acoustic guitar, and ensemble strings), and there is no way to load the others into it.

[AlenK]

And any user PCMs you load into an FA can only be played by the pads. You can't use them to build a new instrument that you can play across the keyboard. That's based on everything I have read online. I don't own an FA or an Integra but I intend some day to buy the latter; the last and perhaps greatest of sound modules. Hence, I have done a fair bit of research on them. (Since I am a bit of a synth geek , I would have done the research on them anyway!)

 

I don't know where sslyotov is getting his information. 

 

PS. Added "user" in front of PCMs to clarify.

[anotherscott]

15 minutes ago, AlenK said:

And any PCMs you load into an FA can only be played by the pads. You can't use them to build a new instrument that you can play across the keyboard.

 

That's true, with the exception that *Roland* can make additional sets of PCMs that you can load in. That's what the axial EXP packs are.

[sslyutov]

It starts reminding me this

 

 

[Shad0wfax]

Yes, the FA can load additional waveforms (Roland offers most of the SRX expansions as additional add-ons for the FA), but these can only be used for the PCM synth engine. There is no way to add new SuperNatural acoustic waveforms, neither into the FA nor into the Integra-7 (and the Integra has a lot more of these than the FA).

 

BTW, I currently use a Yamaha MODX 6 (synth action keyboard) and a Kawai VPC-1 (weighted action) for controlling the Integra.

[AlenK]

3 hours ago, anotherscott said:

That's true, with the exception that *Roland* can make additional sets of PCMs that you can load in. That's what the axial EXP packs are.

 

I meant user PCMs. sslyutov said "any" and that is clearly not the case. Plus, as Shad0wfax notes above, there are other restrictions.

 

According to one thread I read in a forum (here), Roland has coded in the firmware the names of the current EXP packs, the patch data for the tones in those EXP packs (surprisingly, they are evidently not loaded with each pack) and the names of the waveforms they use (which ARE loaded with the packs). As far as instrument tones go, EXP is all that Roland provides (see here). The other Axial packs are bank packs for the pads. 

[sslyutov]

I said compatible.

 

 

Can you do it by updating firmware?

 

 

 

[sslyutov]

FA is incomparable with Integra 7 for 100%

[Jokeyman123]

Looking over this old thread-reminds me why I stuck with what I have equipment-wise. I kept my PX-560, I kept my XW-P1 and my old PX575. And my...well I'll stop there I am also a bit of an equipment junky but in 2022 I am seeing more and more how powerful some of the older equipment-now "obsolete" is ending up being, especially since so much newer equipment is going the plastic route, including Kurzweil, sigh. if I wanted more plastic, I'd get Tupperware (my back isn't agreeing with me on this). They don't make keyboards-not yet. But then, didn't Solton keyboards make some kitchen products I seem to remember? Yes they do..

https://www.salton.com/

 

And you all complain when Casio makes watches!!!!!!    

 

Of course, I have recently added 2 "obsolete" Fusion 8HD workstations. But that's another user group......

 

Remember keyboard junkies, this is all why somebody invented midi cables, which see no brand or model-just endless streams of midi data. A big part of that thrill was (is) joining this giant mess together with midi-and layering 5,6.....20 keyboards in your studio, and playing a humongous sound with one key-what good that was I still don't know-but it has put alot of musicians out of work, fortunately we are re-inventing our usefulness with...I'm not sure yet. I am beginning to understand why Keith Emerson used to stab his keyboards-and people thought that was for show!!!! I am using Soundcloud and Reverb nation now...if I can untie myself from my collection of 200+ audio/midi/data/computer/network cables to get to the computers....

[jibin.jacob3]

 

 

 

Please launch a successor to the MZ X keyboard, its been more than 6 years now!! PLEASE CASIO!! At least make the MZ X500 available in India for one last time I got a job and started earning in 2019 but by that time MZ X500 was not available in India. I was waiting to buy this keyboard since its launch but did not have the budget. I have a CTK6300IN which stopped working in 2020 and I am still waiting for the MZ X500 till this day!! Its my dream keyboard!! THERE IS NO WORTHY COMPETITOR TO THE MZ X500 AT THAT PRICE POINT &  I'M STILL WAITING!!

[silent]

On 11/2/2018 at 5:30 PM, Brad Saucier said:

Casio has a wide range of products.  They release a line of new keyboards every year.  Nothing has really slowed down, it has just temporarily shifted away from digital pianos and high end gear.  They are currently focusing on product lines that are a very important part of Casio's business, portable models, those entry-level to intermediate level keyboards called the CT-X series.  These are rich sounding instruments and comparable in sound quality to keyboards costing hundreds if not thousands more.  If you want to hear the latest from Casio, have a look at those models.  The work being done with those will play a role in the development of future products.  There have been at least seven new CT-X series models released this year for various markets worldwide.  Personally, I'm excited to see what happens next year.  They always seem to have new tricks up their sleeves.  

The closest Equivalent from any competitor would probably be the Yamaha PSR series, and although the panel voices sound fine (these are the voices that are unique to that model specifically) the GM voices usually suck. (and they usually don't sound as particular as  Casio

[Jokeyman123]

All the Roland discussion reminded me too, of why I did not keep many of their products-although I kept my MC-505 and PMA-5, but went through several Roland arrangers and keyboards. The company (for reasons of profit I guess) almost always pushed additional sound cards, arranger cards, etc. to get the latest/better/more better sounds and arrangements. These were not cheap. could easily add 1000+ dollars US to the price of a keyboard, module or arranger. If I just dropped 1-2-3 thousand on a keyboard, did I have a few hundred more for the extra sound cards? The extra sounds or arrangements-at least IMO/experience-didn't add much of an improvement.

 

Re the "sound engine" discussion-unless the architecture is completely different-I don't regard 3 categories of PCM sounds as 3 different architectures-the way the sounds are produced/created/recreated are how I would define a sound engine. PCM, sampling, FM, VA (standard subtractive/additive synthesis but in digital form), true analog, physical modelling, Casio's PD, AIX/AIR, Roland's older D-50 type of architecture-with some similarities I would define these as architectures or ways of creating sounds. Vector synthesis/granular-still basically uses PCM or some other type of architecture as a basis for their sounds, but utilizes the sounds in a different way-such as the Yamaha TG-33, Korg Wavestation etc. but I would not describe these as distinct architectures. Something Peavey attempted to do years ago with their synths promising to be able to upgrade to an entirely different synthesis engines unfortunately failed to do. No wonder software synths have become so popular.  I'd need a half dozen modules or synths to actually have all these architectures available-oh wait, I do!!! Why I know all this-that and 30 plus years, I had to.....

Edited August 21, 2022 by Jokeyman123

[Akshansh - Alex]

2 hours ago, jibin.jacob3 said:

Please launch a successor to the MZ X keyboard, its been more than 6 years now!! PLEASE CASIO!! At least make the MZ X500 available in India for one last time I got a job and started earning in 2019 but by that time MZ X500 was not available in India. I was waiting to buy this keyboard since its launch but did not have the budget. I have a CTK6300IN which stopped working in 2020 and I am still waiting for the MZ X500 till this day!! Its my dream keyboard!! THERE IS NO WORTHY COMPETITOR TO THE MZ X500 AT THAT PRICE POINT &  I'M STILL WAITING!!

 

MZ-X500 was discontinued. But it is still available on some music stores. I'm from India but currently I'm not living there. I purchased my four MZ-X500 from India. I contacted from Casio India and got one keyboard then I contacted various sellers in India and finally I got three more MZX500 one by one. 

 

One fun thing is: I got MZX500 on 3 Jan 2018 then 2019 then 2021 (in the same date. 😅

 

I have wrote the same four or five years before, MZ-X is also my dream keyboard.