User rhythms from other manufacturers

[Jokeyman123]

I know we have beaten this topic to death already but with some excellent new input from Chandler, thanks Chandler! My post is about 2 strategies.

1) How legal is it to take rhythms from other companies (such as Roland, Yamaha, Korg) and adapt these for use in the Casio series, anybody know? I think as long as it is for personal use, and not for re-sale by an individual it is ok...could be wrong but some of us hae been doing this already (legal dept. NOT ME! )

And my 2nd strategy...I wil be trying to record certain other manufacturers "modules"-will remain nameless for now-rhythm and auto-arranger "styles" to midi files to see if I can get these into casio format-AC7 or ckf.  I have already, like Chandler, uploaded a few of my Casio styles to this forum-primarily from my old PX575 and also a few Yamaha style files I converted. I don't know if it is possible, but I will update-for example certain auto-arrangers from other companies have built-in arrangements that are not files at all. Hint-Yamaha QY series-and Roland RA series-I will try to record these as midi data and see what I can come up with-if these units send out the full arrangement of parts-as midi data, that is what I do not know yet. Has anyone here tried this already? I know it isn't really necessary if one has the modules-I use these for auto-accompaniment with my Casios already the QYs can be set to become real-time arrangers with keyboard splits and instant intros, endings and 2 variations with fills, but i don't know what is being sent out midi for recording. If anyone here has attempted this, let me know. And if what I am doing is questionable legally (!) let me know and I will not post anything.

[Mike Martin]

If you own them in the other format, you can convert them. You can't redistribute commercial work but if it was available for free then I don't see the harm in it.

[Jokeyman123]

Yes, these are instruments and patterns I own. I have no intention of selling any of these. Just wanted to show that this can be done (or not-not sure yet) and will probably only be abe to do a handful anyway. Will probably need some of my own alterations. I am trying to demonstrate the expandable possibilities for all the Casio auto-arrangers, how possible it is to create new style arrangements for people that seem to feel the Casio arrangements are not adequate-which I do not agree with for the record. Thanks Mike!

[Chandler Holloway]

I was considering such possibilities when I released the guide initially, but had similar concerns regarding the legality (and optics) of the situation. Now that Mike's given the okay, I think adding a section about converting other Rhythm style formats to the guide would be a very valuable resource for the Casio userbase. Please let me know how your research turns out.

 

Specifically with regards to the Yamaha .STY rhythms, Jososoft has a specialized program that will take .STY files and split them into separate files containing the MIDI note data of the hate Rhythms as well as the voice assignment parameters. You could take the MIDI data and run it through the IDES converter while manually applying the parameters (or using an existing set of .ckf parameters to save time during the conversion process).

http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/sands/index.htm

 

As for Korg and Roland styles, I haven't heard of any specialized converters for those formats. You may have to manually record the MIDI output of the accompaniment pattern and then convert that recorded sequence in IDES. I've been thinking about making a short video on how to do record accompaniment styles manually, I suppose this is as good of a time as any. It would just be a quick tutorial on my personal channel, nothing official on the Casio account.

[Jokeyman123]

There aren't any converters for Korg and Roland, I've looked.  You have described what I will be trying to do-as soon as I can. Will check what the QY100 Yamaha sends, and the Roland PMA-5 sends. Might even be able to get some stuff off my Roland MC-505. I also have an old PSR-SQ16 with some killer accompaniment patterns, might work too. Back to the shed/farm/home. 

[Jokeyman123]

So far-not much luck with QY100-can be done but probably not worth the effort. Have to store a "pattern" to a "song" format structure, then record as midi to a sequencer-but only a sequencer that can of course record all the needed tracks simultaneously will work, otherwise recording one track at a time will take forever, and for each intro, ending variation and fill. Plus, the sounds used by some of these styles are pretty "esoteric" very specific to the sounds in the QY, which has a huge database of sounds, many of which have real-time expression changes in the style (filter, resonance and effects). Might as well just play each part manually and create my own.

 

Will still check PSR-SQ16 and the Roland PMA-5, but I don't think the Roland will be much different. The PSR-might be useful. This has the ability to save some midi data that can be converted to a Yamaha style file, so might get a few different styles for the Casio from this one. I'll update here if I have any luck. 

[petersohn]

EMC Style Works is the most versatile program for converting styles.
http://www.emc-musicsoftware.com/epages/62511965.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62511965/Products/stwxt_0001/SubProducts/stwxt_0001-0020
I used it many times when I had keyboards from Technics and I lacked styles. Ketron SD1/SD5 styles played best because Ketron uses only GM system. Converted styles from Roland E80/G70 also played well. The worst sounded Yamaha styles, so I didn't use them at all. I miss the styles in Casio from Ketron and Roland. I now have Ketron SD5 and there almost every style is suitable for playing - the styles are great, at Casio I don't use the factory ones at all, because they are weak. I used to buy a Technics Giga Styles Collection package and most of the styles were converted from other keys. Probably in older versions of EMC Style Works there was also a converter to Casio MZ 2000.

 

[Vorbis]

Just to weigh in on this topic and copyright laws.     It's quite clear if a rhythm file,  midi or song is copyrighted or maybe not even showing or notice of copyright mark,  it's not in the public domain even if posted on  a website and freely available without paying for it,  use of the file is restricted.    Use of that material is licensed or must be used  with permission of the owner.    Use of the files or rhythms in the home is widely regarded as OK.   Where it gets quite sticky is when your use gets back into the public sector.    A rhythm file seems innocent by itself, but what if you compose a song or melody using that rhythm file as it's base.   You post that song as your song for others to enjoy,  play it for an audience or maybe if you're lucky it becomes a hit and it's downloaded, sold,  played on the radio.   Now you are using other peoples  "intellectual property" for your personal gain and that could just be notoriety, not even for profit.  

 

Many people post their rhythms, songs, midi's for others to use, build off and enjoy, made freely available.   However you may not  know  the authors intention to make public and free to use unless clearly stated.   Granted this is all a text book scenario, but if you are called in to court to defend a copyright infringement,  it's hard to defend.   In looking at a lot of Yamaha styles to convert to Casio,  some of the Yamaha factory files do have copyright notices.   To convert them and post the conversions to a Casio site would be an invitation to trouble   Just as Casio would probably frown on their rhythm files being converted and posted for use on other keyboard manufacturers.

 

This isn't just restricted to music.    Photo's, design, artwork etc etc are all subject to copyright laws.    Will you get into trouble using other rhythm files from another keyboard,  probably not but it could and can happen.    Like Mike Martin says if you use it for commercial work, it's probably best off limits or get permission to use the material.

 

CTK 900

WK7500

 

[Chandler Holloway]

I am approaching this issue more from the standpoint of educating the userbase on how to perform such conversions on their own, with the assumption that any rhythm files they would convert are for personal use and not commercial redistribution. I would never personally distribute any Rhythms sourced from another manufacturer (mostly because converting .AC7 Rhythms from one Casio to another is a big enough task on its own).

 

Quote

 

A rhythm file seems innocent by itself, but what if you compose a song or melody using that rhythm file as it's base.   You post that song as your song for others to enjoy,  play it for an audience ormaybe if you're lucky it becomes a hit and it's downloaded, sold,  played on the radio.   Now you are using other peoples  "intellectual property" for your personal gain and that could just be notoriety, not even for profit.  

 

Many people post their rhythms, songs, midi's for others to use, build off and enjoy, made freely available.   However you may not  know  the authors intention to make public and free to use unless clearly stated.   Granted this is all a text book scenario, but if you are called in to court to defend a copyright infringement,  it's hard to defend.

 

 

As far as intellectual property is concerned, I think Rhythms are an interesting case. Redistributing Yamaha rhythms in a Casio format in an official, commercial capacity would be problematic, obviously (not to mention a severe PR misstep).

 

But as for your example of someone being accused of copyright infringement for using an accompaniment style in a popular song, I'm not sure that accompaniment styles can be held to the same IP standards as traditional compositions because they're made to be adaptable to whatever chords and tempo you're playing. Casio accompaniment styles in particular are always programmed in the key of C major to begin with (plus an intended tempo embedded within the Metadata of the file), but the user can use an accompaniment style to play a chord progression in E-flat at a tempo wildly different from what the original composer intended, and they're likely to be playing an original melody line with their right hand at the same time.

 

If a Casio user releases a song that features an accompaniment style that was programmed by someone else, but the Rhythm is being implemented in that performance in a way that is unique to the Casio user's composition (i.e. different key, different chords, different instrumentation), I think that would easily satisfy the "transformative" requirement for fair use of someone else's intellectual property.

 

If the song in question featured a MIDI song file programmed by someone else, and the Casio user just played back the MIDI file as-is from start to finish and added vocals and a keyboard part on top of it, that would be more questionable. Rhythm files are different in that they are intended from the get-go to be tools for composers to expand their compositions; the extent to which the composer of the Rhythm can lay claim to another musician's use of that tool seems questionable to me. Obviously whoever designed/sampled the tones on a keyboard doesn't have claim to songs composed using those tones; I feel like Rhythms are much the same way, even if they have vastly more "compositional content" in them than a tone or a sample does. As long as the method in which the Rhythm is implemented in the final product can be deemed transformative when compared to the Rhythm as it was originally programmed, I don't think there's much to worry about.

 

It's a stimulating topic for me at least, as I once aspired to be an IP lawyer in the halcyon days of my youth. That seems so long ago!

[Vorbis]

The point here is that copyright laws give wide protections to people providing intellectual property.    Courts can fine the person infringing an amount of $200 up to $150,000.00 and force you to pay attorney fees and court costs for the violation.   Rhythm  files can be written song specific.   Best to be aware of what you grab off the internet and what you post.    I would agree that there's not much to worry about.   But the laws do exist...

 

CTK900

WK7500

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[vbdx66]

As an example, you can read here Yamaha’s Proprietary Copyright Notice pertaining to all sound data included in its keyboards (including “Stylesl” aka “Rhythms”):

 

https://usa.yamaha.com/about_yamaha/proprietary_rights_notice/

 

I would be careful with the styles from recent keyboards and those for sale on the Yamaha Musicsoft website.

 

That said, I think it would be safe to convert user Yamaha styles to Casio rhythms.

 

The process might be intellectually stimulating because usually, rhythms from different manufacturers have a flair of their own and Yamaha/Korg/Roland styles might give interesting results when converted to Casio rhythm file format.

 

Vinciane

[Jokeyman123]

Well, this is why I asked the question. Now after weighing in seeing all the information-I did not attack the Casio tech that-oops, wrong scenario watching too many Perry Masons on meTV.

 

But seriously, I am not having much luck with my conversions-as Chandler said, I intended this as an amateur non-commercial use to show what can be done. And the Roland manual states similar to the Yamaha re using their built-in styles-free for my own personal use, but beyond that probably not a good idea.

 

Now that I have read all these, I will not post any styles I have created from other companies. I may still re-design a few Casio styles to post, or my original styles, and if anyone wishes to use these for their next megahit-god bless you, buy a cup of coffee and tell them its for Jokeyman-speciall if you get on TV, I always wanted to be on TV,  just not on "America's Most Wanted" thanks. And I had looked at the EMC Styleworks quit awhile ago, but the price seems a little high for me. And unless it is a killer auto-arrangement-my old SK76 Gem still had all of these beat hands-down, the real-time change algorhithms were amazing-probably closer to the Solton/Ketron pro arrangers but it is in the keyboard graveyard now RIP, I only use the arranger functions for practicing anyway-better than a metronome-or a drummer making faces at me (I know I always did) or the guitarist telling me to tune my piano...hello I can't put some new strings on you cheap.....or the singer complaining I'm too loud, not loud enough or playing in the wrong key, well I've tried them all, apparently there isn't one designed for your voice, at least not on this planet!!!!!! Back to the mother ship.

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                 

[2112]

I think that even commercial reproduction of the built-in instrument styles will be OK, provided that you don't infringe the "right to publicity" of the original vendor.

 

Take for example a lineup of synthesizers from a certain... y... vendor 😉. They openly advertise them as having sounds of the vintage "Rd" "Wr" "Clv" instruments. This has been tested in courts to not infringe on the rights of Rhodes, Wurlitzer & Hohner Clavinet, whoever owns those brands nowadays. Other synthesizer from the same family sports:

1. H, American tonewheel organ

2. V, British transistor organ

3. F, Italian transistor organ

4. A, Japanese transistor organ

You can google (or bing) the actual names yourself. The sampled grand piano segment is full of references to "American grand" (Steinway made in Astoria,NY) , "German grand" (Steinway made in Hamburg), "Italian grand" (Fazioli), etc. Only Ravenscroft breaks out of this mold by explicitly licensing its name.

 

Little bit of creativity (musical & technological) plus some time spent with a thesaurus will cover you quite well.

[sslyutov]

On 1/11/2019 at 1:26 PM, 2112 said:

I think that even commercial reproduction of the built-in instrument styles will be OK, provided that you don't infringe the "right to publicity" of the original vendor.

 

Take for example a lineup of synthesizers from a certain... y... vendor 😉. They openly advertise them as having sounds of the vintage "Rd" "Wr" "Clv" instruments. This has been tested in courts to not infringe on the rights of Rhodes, Wurlitzer & Hohner Clavinet, whoever owns those brands nowadays. Other synthesizer from the same family sports:

1. H, American tonewheel organ

2. V, British transistor organ

3. F, Italian transistor organ

4. A, Japanese transistor organ

You can google (or bing) the actual names yourself. The sampled grand piano segment is full of references to "American grand" (Steinway made in Astoria,NY) , "German grand" (Steinway made in Hamburg), "Italian grand" (Fazioli), etc. Only Ravenscroft breaks out of this mold by explicitly licensing its name.

 

Little bit of creativity (musical & technological) plus some time spent with a thesaurus will cover you quite well.
 

5

and 'y' sells their synths with royalty-free license by default. (at least the latest models)

Which means to me you have to buy it first (I can be wrong).

[Jokeyman123]

Thank you all for important input. Based on all this and Chandler's I have cautiously uploaded a short new ckf rhythm with some info about the process and caveats as I've read here ina new PX560 post. If I get any positive vibe here, and it is not deemed in violation of anything, would welcome that and I will work on and post a few more. I am trying to select some only experimentally, knowing everyone's tastes are different and uniquely your own-and also trying for styles or hooks I have not heard from Casio so far and of course I do not have the newest MZ-X series to compare, but have several other Casio's new and older as a basis for trying for different.

[Jokeyman123]

As a follow-up, and a final-although I have successfully recorded and reproduced several style files from other hardware modules playable in the Casios as auto-arrangements-it is definitely working well now that the process and workflow is clear-it takes some practice and skill to establish markers for each Casio section and get balances, tones etc. sounding correct-I think I had better leave posting styles from other manufacturers off limits. For my personal use, doing this definitely adds another dimension to what can be done with the Casios-it blends creating entirely original works from scratch with learning characteristic style "hooks" used in what is now mostly considered obsolete equipment. Takes some work but for example the one style I did upload uses a very stylistic chord pattern for a song-in the key of C it progresses from a GMaj7-to gmin7-to a min7 to D7 (also called the 5 of 5 chord), but never resolves to C, a nice little pattern to practice over.

[Jokeyman123]

Here is an mp3 using one of the styles I've converted-a kind of fast funk pattern-honestly I don't even remember where this style is from anymore-just to show what can be done. This is live from my PX560, just playing a little lead organ line (a little sloppy-my chops still need tuning up but I'm working on it, I'm no Joey DeFrancesco or Jimmy Smith!) In Fmin7-C7 to gmin7-D7 simple I-V chord progression but the style is doing a little bit more underneath. Just for giggles, hope you all get something out of it. I just love the sound of the PX560, even if my chops are not quite where I want them to be. What the heck!

 

Jamfunk.mp3

[vbdx66]

Cool 👍 

[Jokeyman123]

Thanks! 1st take-I left it with mistakes intact-no quantizing or editing, just let it rip. Must be that extra egg I had for breakfast...and all the great George Clinton/Funkadelics out of control stuff I constantly listened to!

[vbdx66]

Yeah that extra egg at breakfast 🍳  was probably from an alien species I guess. I should try to listen to the Funkadelics too, it might give me some hype improvisational ideas.

[Jokeyman123]

I decided to post this way-as an mp3 consisting of my live playing with a modified style I used to accompany my melody lines-as safe and not infringing on any copyright issue. This of course providing it stays here on this website for others to listen to and use for educational or personal use. I would have no control what others do with it beyond this, and since it is not my copyright, I have no legal control. And musicians have been sharing "riffs". "hooks" and distinguishing nuances of each other's playing styles for decades with no apparent copyright problems-mostly.

 

I can see that an ac7. ckf or other file which is possibly copyrighted material such as the Yamaha .sty file (although many of these on the Internet have been created by other keyboard players) might cause a problem.I also wonder out loud-if I have to make a few changes for a given style to be playable on a Casio, or the equipment is much older-such as the PSR-SQ16 which I haven't worked with yet, is this  safer than copying the newest styles, which I can't except from my Casio keyboards?

 

 I will abide by what Mike Martin has already posted, maybe upload 1-2 more ckf of my own creation-and if from another company's equipment, I will make it clear this is so, and I will also remind users any downloaded content is strictly for personal or non-commercial use, and any use beyond this forum will be the responsibility of the person who downloads it. I think without being a lawyer, that makes it clear enough.  As far as my mp3, this was recorded as a midi file first from my PX560, using the master track only in one pass,  then re-recorded with that to an audio file using the audio recorder, and converted from Casio's wav file format located on my thumb drive to an mp3 using Audacity on my laptop-an excellent program for that and other audio file modifications.

[Jokeyman123]

The entire basis of what I am doing here is simply to share whatever creative knowledge I may (or may not) have, even if it's to create something so another musician can say-"Whoo-hoo, I won't ever do that!"  Coltrane or Arthur Rubenstein didn't learn to play like that in a vacuum. Nor did George Winston, Ray Charles or James Brown, Elvis or any other popular act. The Beatles would travel to different towns just to learn one new chord for g***s sake! (Not Ringo)

 

If anyone benefits from forum content for developing their own skills or knowledge, that's why I joined this forum in the first place. If I  hear something unique some day that someone "borrowed" from listening to me (I doubt that will happen) to make a  gazillion dollars, they have my blessing. In this media age, I can't go out to a half-dozen clubs anymore, hear and jam with musicians that are now legendary to many of us, it has to take this form-yes there are streaming media websites for jamming but not the same imo, and tremendous posts on Youtube and elsewhere for tutorials-most anyone can learn just about anything online from peeling potatoes to tying your shoelaces. 

 

But if I and others can create something, put it here and hopefully pass on whatever I can or cannot do in this forum, it doesn't take the place of walking into the Cafe Metropole in Manhattan and hearing Lester Young, Gene Krupa or whoever was on that day-yes I did before it closed forever, day or night live bands were playing almost constantly in the heyday, OK I am that old!  Or going to Manny's Music or Bronen's or Sam Ash back in the mid and late 60s-I think it was on 48th street but was a long time ago might have been 46th- to listen to Hendrix pick up a guitar off the rack, sit down and try it out there-I missed that but saw at least one famous band come in together to buy equipment- Santana used to come in once in awhile, I took the bus from NJ before I could drive to get my drums there-imagine me taking my bass drum on the bus-one piece and trip at a time, very fun-boy do I miss that stuff and did i get looks to kill!  And my chrome Slingerland Gene Krupa Radio King snare drum wish I still had it, got me through hundreds of weddings and other gigs before I switched over to keys. And back then, these guys weren't surrounded by security, body guards and alarm systems. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Wall-Fame-Citys-Legendary-Mannys/dp/1423405552

 

If I watch for example SSluytov playing a composition here in a post (thank you SS,) or listen to an arrangement from m1038 (thanks again) I think it is or anybody else, and this inspires me to do something musically creative that I will probably never get the chance to do in a live situation, it is a new form of communication which has tremendous merit I think. it is a bit of a revolutionary age IMO-sort of like when the printing press was invented and people could afford to buy books, which changed history-no I wasn't there wise guys!  I kind of think we are in the middle of something similar.  But then, Dylan warned us a long time ago something about the times were doing something or other. Back to the record rack with me.....

[sslyutov]

23 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

Here is an mp3 using one of the styles I've converted-a kind of fast funk pattern-honestly I don't even remember where this style is from anymore-just to show what can be done. This is live from my PX560, just playing a little lead organ line (a little sloppy-my chops still need tuning up but I'm working on it, I'm no Joey DeFrancesco or Jimmy Smith!) In Fmin7-C7 to gmin7-D7 simple I-V chord progression but the style is doing a little bit more underneath. Just for giggles, hope you all get something out of it. I just love the sound of the PX560, even if my chops are not quite where I want them to be. What the heck!

 

Jamfunk.mp3

Is there one scene and ending in this style?

[petersohn]

For many years I have been on many music forums - dedicated to keyboard instruments - Roland, Korg, Yamaha and several musical instruments related to various brands. The styles converted and adapted to a different instrument have been made available there many times, and no one ever did any problems.
If, for example, Casio in his new instrument Ct-X5000 used styles from Genos and placed in factory styles, it would have problems with copyright. If someone used Yamaha Genos styles to release a song without an agreement with Yamaha, that would also have problems with copyrights. Styles converted and adapted to Casio instruments will sound different and no producer will be able to claim copyright because they sound different than on the key on which they were created. The same law applies to styles for specific works - if they are available free of charge, there is no problem, if we sell them, we have to pay a fee for the given creator of the work - in Poland Zaiks is charged. But if we change the intro and ending a bit and it is different from the original song, we do not have to pay the fee anymore.

[sslyutov]

I think the best answer you can get from the manufacturer.

Ask the customer support about it.