firmware upgarde Casio, please give us a firmware upgrade!!!

[vbdx66]

Hello everybody,

 

So far, after a couple of weeks I like very much my CT-X800 and I find it has really a lot of extraordinary capabilities for a keyboard which is tagged as entry-level. In particular, I am amazed by the qualiy of the sounds and rhythms (even if they allow only two variations per rhythm), as well as by the ease of use of the functions, esp. the registration system and the 6-tracks MIDI recorder.

 

I am also amazed that the CT-X800 contains such « Pro » functions such as on-bass and full-range chord recognition, various scales including some to play oriental and Baroque (!) music, the possibility to move tone several octaves up and down, an arpeggiator, etc.

 

With such advanced functions, there is one real flaw that I find the CT-X700/800 has and this already has been discussed elsewhere but I will insist again on this point because IMO, it is really a serious flaw, if not the only true flaw of this very fine keyboard: the fact that the volume of the Upper1, Upper2 and Lower voices are not adjustable at all. Shame.

 

So here is my question: since the CT-X700/800 share the AiX chip with the more advanced CT-X3000/5000 and since these got a firmware upgrade, is it at least theoretically possible that the operating system of CT-X700/800 would be upgradeable and that, if Casio so wished, that they could implement a function in the Function menu enabling adjustment of the volume of the three voices?

 

I know that there is no mixer and that if I want “advanced” functions I should go for the CT-X3000/5000 (but they are too bulky and not enough user-friendly for my usage) etc., but volume adjustment of the Upper1, Upper2 and Lower voices seems to be such a basic and indispensable function of any keyboard, even one aimed at beginners or home players, that I don’t understand why it was not implemented in the CT-X700/800 in the first place. 

 

What, even the Yamaha PSR E363, which has more or less the same price of the CT-X700 and which is aimed at the same target group (serious beginners and home players wanting something fun, easy and very portable), has this basic function. Unfortunately its keybed and sounds - two essential points when choosing a keyboard - are sub-par when compared to the CT-X700/800.

 

Let’s say that you want to use a really basic setting: Stage piano for Upper1, Stereo Strings for Upper2 and Acoustic Bass for Lower, for instance to interpret an acoustic jazz tune. What are you supposed to do if the piano is being drowned by the strings and the bass is inaudible? I hope I make my point here.

 

So Casio, if this is feasible, please give us a firmware upgrade for the CT-X700/800. Thanks.

 

Regards.

[Mike Martin]

Was there a need to create two topics in the last hour on the same subject?

Unfortunately I would not expect firmware updates for the CT-X700/800. All of the features you're asking for are present in a different model which is why Casio made different models at different price points.  In the USA the CT-X3000 is at most a $100 more (usually more like $50) than the CT-X800.  With that you gain the layer balance features you want, expression pedal input, significantly better speakers, tone editing and more.  

 

Also the CT-X700 in particular does not have USB Storage which makes firmware updates reliant on customers computers - as we learned with the XW-series this too often leads to fatal (for the keyboard) mistakes. 

[vbdx66]

Hi @Mike Martin and thanks for your answer.

 

I am well aware of all the points you are raising. I also realise that the CT-X3000 costs only 100 dollars more than the CT-X800. My concern is not about the price. Actually, I ordered the CT-X3000 before the CT-X800 and sent it back after a couple of weeks because 1) I wanted something lighter (the CT-X800 is weighting 3 kilos less than the CT-X3000 and unfortunately I don’t drive so these kilos do make a difference) and 2) the use interface of the CT-X3000 is really too intricate for. Yay present usage (you have to go through too many menus and sub-menus before reaching the function you need). By comparison, the CT-X800 is so easy to operate.

 

Come on, I am not asking for anything fancy such as more sounds or DSPs or 4-variations rhythms or phrase pads or expression pedals... I simply want to use my keyboard to play some music and in order to be musical, the possibility to balance the volume of the different voices is really something essential. Besides, I don’t think that adding volume balance for the three voices would deter people from upgrading to the CT-X3000 or 5000 if they need more advanced functions. Conversely, I will not upgrade to the CT-X3000 or 5000 simply because there’s no volume balance on the CT-X800 - I will simply frown and swear each time I encounter the problem.

 

At least, the CT-X800 does have the capability to read an USB stick, so a firmware upgrade should be technically possible, should it not?

 

I am planning to teach some teenagers at a local association the basics of keyboard playing and this volume adjustment function will be dearly miss.

 

Unfortunately, I know some keyboard teachers who advise their pupils to opt for the Yamaha PSR E363 rather than for the CT-X700 or 800 solely because of this missing feature. Too bad. 😢

 

Regards.

Edited March 6, 2019 by vbdx66
Typo

[Jokeyman123]

Better off with one of the Casios that has the duet mode-gives the same octaves split in half. With an 88-key instrument-like having 2 identical pianos merged together. Also nice for duplicating a double-manual Hammond or similar-like the PX560.   Also has amazing balance options for just about anything-from one screen. Not overly heavy-but yes a little more money. For teaching piano-2 students can play 4-hand piano pieces. I use it-piano action is wonderful, and I 've learned on Steinways, I'm fussy.

[vbdx66]

Hi @Jokeyman123 I understand your point but I already have a digital piano (Yamaha DGX650) and I simply want a very light, very portable keyboard with nice sounds (which the CT-X800 have) that I can carry around with me (remember, I cannot drive a car).

 

The CT-X800 is so lightweight that I also use it to write and record my own tunes and arrangements on the living-room couch, but the fact that it is missing such a basic function as balancing the levels between the Upper1, Upper2 (Layer) and Lower (Split) voices is very frustrating and impairs the creative process.

 

I don’t thing that something as basic as layering your piano with strings with the appropriate levels is such a sophisticated function that you’d need the next model up to get it... 😟

[Brad Saucier]

8 hours ago, vbdx66 said:

 2) the use interface of the CT-X3000 is really too intricate for. Yay present usage (you have to go through too many menus and sub-menus before reaching the function you need). By comparison, the CT-X800 is so easy to operate.

 

The CT-X800 is easier because it's more basic.  It's missing the upgraded features you are asking for.  If they were added, we end up with a CT-X3000, something with deeper menus.  I guess you're simply asking for the CT-X3000 to be easier to learn and use.  Unfortunately with greater complexity, comes a greater learning curve.  I can't think of any way around that.

[vbdx66]

Hi Brad,

 

I am sorry to insist. I am not asking for the CT-X3000 to be easier to understand/operate. I simply would like to for instance to be able to balance the volume of piano and strings when I am layering them on the CT-X800. Also, the CT-X800 is so lightweight that it would make sense to have both the CT-X800 and 3000 for different usages (studio and gigging e.g.), but even so, the CT-X800 would still need this volume adjustment feature IMHO.

 

This is such a basic function. I think that any keyboard which is meant to be a real music instrument and not a toy should have it. When this function doesn’t exist, it simply means that the layering function is useless in many cases because one of the layered voices will drown the other, and this is not musical at all. Same for the split function.

 

I can’t understand why this function is not present, whereas the CT-X800 has on-bass (inverted) chords, which is a rather advanced harmony concept, or even very exotic scales to play some baroque music, which is even more obscure. I think that the arppegiator is also a rather advanced feature... so why can’t I layer a piano with strings, or split the keyboard between an acoustic bass and a piano (or a flute and a cello) with the possibility to adjust the volumes so that the result would have some musical meaning?

 

By the way, my problem with the CT-X3000 is not that I could not understand/operate it. I simply don’t have the eyes I used to have when I was 20 years old and quite frankly, it is not convenient to access all the menus and sub-menus from the tiny numeric keypad and the LCD screen, although quite nice (I like its usage on the CT-X800), is simply too small to accommodate all the information it is supposed to display on the CT-X3000.

 

Regards.

[Brad Saucier]

12 hours ago, vbdx66 said:

I think that any keyboard which is meant to be a real music instrument and not a toy should have it.

 

I'm sorry you feel this way.  

[vbdx66]

18 hours ago, Brad Saucier said:

 

I'm sorry you feel this way.  

Hi @Brad Saucier don’t worry, actually I am enjoying the CT-X800 a lot in spite of this flaw. I might still return it and upgrade to the CT-X3000 but I am reluctant to do this because it weights 3 kg more than the CT-X800 and I like being able to take the CT-X800 with and I am carrying it because I don’t drive. Also, it is so easy to have it hooked to the computer downstairs in my office to use it as a MIDI controller or record it via my digital audio interface, then bring it back in the living-room to play it from the couch to find new musical ideas. I like the idea of a keyboard being as easy to carry around as a guitar. But that’s just me, right...?

 

I understand that, even if technically feasible, Casio doesn’t wish to upgrade the CT-X800 at this stage to provide voice volume adjustment, but I strongly hope at any rate that in a few years, the CT-X700/800 successor will implement this function.

 

Regards.

[vbdx66]

Hi @Mike Martin sorry for the double posting, I didn’t do it on purpose. I will delete the other post.

[LeoZhao]

On 3/6/2019 at 1:21 PM, Mike Martin said:

Was there a need to create two topics in the last hour on the same subject?

Unfortunately I would not expect firmware updates for the CT-X700/800. All of the features you're asking for are present in a different model which is why Casio made different models at different price points.  In the USA the CT-X3000 is at most a $100 more (usually more like $50) than the CT-X800.  With that you gain the layer balance features you want, expression pedal input, significantly better speakers, tone editing and more.  

 

Also the CT-X700 in particular does not have USB Storage which makes firmware updates reliant on customers computers - as we learned with the XW-series this too often leads to fatal (for the keyboard) mistakes. 

Hi Mike, I think as a forum admin, it's better to consider more on customer's suggestion, if you cannot solve the problem, you can report and feedback to the technical support rather than let customer to buy a more expensive product. 

I think as long as this keyboard is able to connect to a PC/MAC/CELLPHONE, the firmware is able to be upgraded as well. 

this is not a very fancy or high-end feature, is common on keyboards, and not difficult to implement. 

I was thinking to buy this keyboard, but because lack of this important feature, and your way of solving customer's feedback, I decided go with Y brand. 

you are playing an impotent role between CASIO and customer and your words will affect CASIO's market share

[Brad Saucier]

@LeoZhao  Which model Yamaha did you purchase?  Yes, you can mention the name on this forum.  We don't have a rule against that.  

[Jokeyman123]

Leo-I know of no keyboard or any other electronic musical instrument that allows you to upgrade firmware with a smartphone or tablet, I don't think Android is robust enough to create an app for that, unless the developer knows the software routines required to communicate with the firmware routines. Please let me know if I am wrong, and what can do that, I'd be interested to know.

 

There has already been such heavy development over the years on the Windows, Linux and Apple platforms for every conceivable music task with so many keyboards, portable and otherwise.  It is daunting to even burn in a new operating system on phones or tablets that allow you to do that, and most major manufacturers make sure they lock you out of any kind of firmware modification-I know, I've installed ROMs in phones which require at least a passing knowledge of Linux (Android) commands from a DOS-like interface/terminal. You are lucky if you can get these tablets or phones to communicate at all with any music keyboard. Why Chordana is designed for specific keyboards only. I still see very limited apps that can deal with interfacing with any keyboard or other electronic musical instrument-though USB or midi DIN. 

 

 

 

 Firmware by nature is designed to be burned into a memory IC, designed to not be easily accessible unless you are given a software routine to unlock the bootloader. Most manufacturers do not want a typical or even very knowledgable electronic musician tampering with firmware as Mike Martin stated as you can cripple your machine requiring a complete mother or mainboard replacement. And there is always the possibility a good programmer can disassemble the firmware code and steal it. I see enough copying of products already to know this is a real problem. 

 

And to VBDx-if Casio (and every other manufacturer) did not diversify their keyboards how quickly their doors might close. It is a bit frustrating to see all but 1-2 features on a new keyboard, only to find those on another, but then that one is missing these 1-2! Market share is so slim on the ground I guess this is a necessary evil in the music industry. The one keyboard I had that did it all-was a Generalmusic and look at what happened to them! Look at what you have to spend to get a Montage, even a lousy 49-key controller. I could buy all the Casios I need to get all the features I need-and still come out financially way ahead of buying a full-blown Nord, Roland Fantom etc. And I have.......................bought all the Casios........I need......sigh. 5 in all now. But who's counting...I am.

 "Now he sings, now he sobs"..................Chick Corea

[vbdx66]

Hi everyone,

 

Sorry if I am a bit insistent but I do think that the ability to adjust the volume of the Upper1, Upper2 and Lower voices is a prerequisite. What's the point in having high quality sounds on board with the possibility to split and layer them if their volume is not adjustable?

 

Since @Brad Saucier says it is allowed to quote other brands and models, well, the Yamaha PSR E3xx models all have the possibility to adjust the volume of all voices and of the rhythms and they are always priced around 200$\200€ when they are being launched.

 

I understand that complex mixing features are to be found only on higher-end, more expensive and sophisticated models, but balancing the Upper1, Upper2 and Lower voices is such a basic feature...

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Brad Saucier]

I can assure everyone that Casio is aware of all requests and concerns posted on this forum, including this particular one.  They will take your requests into consideration and decide if it's something they can do on the current model, or add to future models.  

[vbdx66]

Thanks for your concern Brad, it is highly appreciated 😊

[LeoZhao]

On 10/15/2019 at 8:10 AM, Jokeyman123 said:

Leo-I know of no keyboard or any other electronic musical instrument that allows you to upgrade firmware....

Hi Jokeyman, thanks for the detailed explanation. 

I am a firmware engineer, also have embedded software development experience.  

keyboards firmware does not have a system, it just bare metal code runs in chips. does not like Linux has bootloader.

Firmware upgrade even can be done by many ways, no matter wired or wireless depends on the product design.

at least it should have a manufactory UART, as long as Casio want, the keyboards can be upgraded at the service center for sure.

it is not something impossible

[mike71]

On 10/15/2019 at 2:10 PM, Jokeyman123 said:

 Firmware by nature is designed to be burned into a memory IC, designed to not be easily accessible unless you are given a software routine to unlock the bootloader. Most manufacturers do not want a typical or even very knowledgable electronic musician tampering with firmware as Mike Martin stated as you can cripple your machine requiring a complete mother or mainboard replacement.

 

 

It depends a lot of underlying architecture of the system.

If a synth is designed from the start to have the firmware upgradeable, it could be made as an easy and error-free operation. Basically, the system should have a first stage bootloader in a separate and read only memory that could also rewrite the second stage, and failing that, or if detect a key combination on boot, go in a system reload mode.

To speak about other manufacturers, the Kawai K5000 has this architecture, and if the upgrade fails, it's easy to recover. On the other hand the same era k9500 is upgradeable only sending a midi file full of sysex and hoping for the best. Different architecture different results.

 

But even if the firmware update is feasible, building the actual software isn't an easy task, and requires resources, and the costs involved have to be balanced on developing a new product.

[Jokeyman123]

Agree. Probably too much expense without enough return for Casio to design and implement easily upgraded firmware solutions. I think of another failed effort-Peavey years ago had a very limited run of keyboards that promised the ability to completely change the  fundamental design of the synthesis engine-load a complete new synth architecture from bootup. never materialized and they dropped out of keyboards completely. Too bad, the DPMs had some interesting sounds, very solidly made,  but with no support ah well. 

[G777]

On 10/15/2019 at 9:56 AM, Brad Saucier said:

I can assure everyone that Casio is aware of all requests and concerns posted on this forum, including this particular one.  They will take your requests into consideration and decide if it's something they can do on the current model, or add to future models.  

 

I support this request to Casio to release Firmware upgrade for CT-X800 and include "Upper1, Upper2 and Lower voices volume control" in it. 

[LeoZhao]

Look at this video, it has viewed 43,734 times. 

This guy has 29,800 followers. missing of volume balancing function is his main reason.

and he suggested a Y brand in the end.

 

 

[LeoZhao]

I am very interested in the versatile tone of CT-X series, if I cannot find a keyboard has similar tones/function/price, i think i may go with ctx800/3000

[G777]

There is no better value for the money exists than CT-X800 or CT-X3000, depending what is your need.

I was one of the first owners of  CT-X3000, love it.  Sold it later because I am not using all features. Bought second hand almost new CT-X800 for the fraction of the price and couldn't be more happier. Was little worried about keybed quality, but after I learned how i'ts designed, it is not my concern anymore.

[Rod Tompkins]

On 10/15/2019 at 8:55 AM, vbdx66 said:

Sorry if I am a bit insistent but I do think that the ability to adjust the volume of the Upper1, Upper2 and Lower voices is a prerequisite.

Totally agree! I find the bass to be so low in some combinations that it's unusable. When layering piano and strings, the strings are too loud for my taste.

[Silvano Silva]

On 11/4/2019 at 12:29 AM, LeoZhao said:

Look at this video, it has viewed 43,734 times. 

This guy has 29,800 followers. missing of volume balancing function is his main reason.

and he suggested a Y brand in the end.

 

 

Casio really got it wrong with the CT-X700 CT-X800. Not being able to change UPPER and LOWER volumes is a serious fault