How many samples does the MZ-X support?

[Silvano Silva]

Well everyone knows that the MZ-X has its limits of 128mb MZ-X300 and 256Mb MZ-X500.
The question is what exactly number of samples does MZ-X support until it gives the warning:
DATA FULL.😢
Anyone connected to the technical area to answer?
I have 110 megabytes left and the MZ-X is already warning DATA FULL.
This was missing in the MANUAL.

I Have the MZ-X500

[Jokeyman123]

Seems like the sample memory is being shared with something else, like the operating system, or possibly user memory for rhythms or tones that are edited? Shouldn't be.  If samples are not truncated when you load them-you can see leading or trailing silent parts of samples in a sample editor as you probably are already aware-these will take up sample memory.  I also know the sample memory in my old PX575 shares that with other non-volatile parts of user tones and rhythms, reducing the usable capacity for samples. 

[Popsel]

15 hours ago, Silvano Silva said:

Well everyone knows that the MZ-X has its limits of 128mb MZ-X300 and 256Mb MZ-X500.
The question is what exactly number of samples does MZ-X support until it gives the warning:
DATA FULL.😢
Anyone connected to the technical area to answer?
I have 110 megabytes left and the MZ-X is already warning DATA FULL.
This was missing in the MANUAL.

I Have the MZ-X500

 

Hello,
I bought the MZ-X mainly because of the sampler. I would also be very interested in how CASIO implements the samples prepared with the sample manager in the MZ-X. Yamaha MOX-F and Tyros 4 have a maximum number of samples that the system can manage. The memory is there separated into the FLASH ROM for the sample data (separate module 512MB - 2GB) and the management data, which are housed in the internal system flash memory. So it may happen that the limit of the maximum manageable samples has already been reached, although there is still enough free space in the sample flash module. But that's the case with Yamaha. Unfortunately, I do not know how Casio handles it.
It's definitely an interesting topic.

Could it be that the message "DATA FULL" does not refer to samples at all? The message may refer to a different type of data.

[Silvano Silva]

7 hours ago, Popsel said:

 

Hello,
I bought the MZ-X mainly because of the sampler. I would also be very interested in how CASIO implements the samples prepared with the sample manager in the MZ-X. Yamaha MOX-F and Tyros 4 have a maximum number of samples that the system can manage. The memory is there separated into the FLASH ROM for the sample data (separate module 512MB - 2GB) and the management data, which are housed in the internal system flash memory. So it may happen that the limit of the maximum manageable samples has already been reached, although there is still enough free space in the sample flash module. But that's the case with Yamaha. Unfortunately, I do not know how Casio handles it.
It's definitely an interesting topic.

Could it be that the message "DATA FULL" does not refer to samples at all? The message may refer to a different type of data.

Excellent your point of view.
I already checked MZ-X with a sample limit when I had to uninstall one ZTN to install another.
To get the exact number I would have to format my MZ-X reinstall a ZTN file of many samples until the DATA FULL alert appears.

[Silvano Silva]

14 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

Seems like the sample memory is being shared with something else, like the operating system, or possibly user memory for rhythms or tones that are edited? Shouldn't be.  If samples are not truncated when you load them-you can see leading or trailing silent parts of samples in a sample editor as you probably are already aware-these will take up sample memory.  I also know the sample memory in my old PX575 shares that with other non-volatile parts of user tones and rhythms, reducing the usable capacity for samples. 

 

Rhythms, memory registration, edited tones I believe fit the memory of MEGABYTES LIMIT (128 MZ-X300 AND 256 MZ-X500) How much WAVE sample memory is the number of samples that has this limit. The question is how many WAVE samples

[Popsel]

Hi,

There is 256MB MZ-X500 (128MB MZ-X300) flash memory available for storing samples.

You can see how much flash memory is free on the display.

With keyboards, however, a distinction is always made between the memory size for samples and the maximum number of samples supported by the operating system (V1.60). It can happen, if you use a lot of short samples, that flash memory is still available for samples, but the number of max. usable samples has already been reached.

Then no new samples can be added. Is there any new knowledge or information from Casio about the maximum number of samples that firmware V1.60 supports?

 

Here' a an Example of a Tyros Keyboard:

Name: Tyros4 Firmware Upgrade Ver 1.10

Changes:
1) The upper limit of the following Custom Voice-related parameters has been increased.
-VOICE RAM: from 6,144 KB to 8,960 KB
-WAVE COUNT: from 8,192 to 9,999
-WAVEFORM COUNT: from 1,280 to 2,560

This means you can have a maximum of 9,999 Samples this firmware can handle.

 

 

I ask because I have an idea to save flash sample space. However, this would only help if the maximum number of manageable samples is high.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Popsel
Added Example

[Brad Saucier]

32 minutes ago, Popsel said:

Is there any new knowledge or information from Casio about the maximum number of samples that firmware V1.60 supports?

 

Download the MZX Sample Manager users guide for information on the number of samples for each tone type.  It's on the following page ....

 

https://support.casio.com/en/support/download.php?cid=008&pid=1327

[Popsel]

7 minutes ago, Brad Saucier said:

 

Download the MZX Sample Manager users guide for information on the number of samples for each tone type.  It's on the following page ....

 

https://support.casio.com/en/support/download.php?cid=008&pid=1327

 

Hi Brad
thanks for the hint, but you misunderstood me.
I am asking for the maximum number of samples that the MZ-X operating system V1.60 can handle. I am already familiar with the limitation of samples per TONE. The maximum number of samples that can be reached by the CASIO MZ-X firmware V1.60 should be in the order of several thousand samples.

[Brad Saucier]

Casio does not publish max number of samples for expansion memory because it can vary depending on the samples used.  You can probably do a little math to figure out the absolute maximum if you keep the samples extremely small.  There is a limit to the number of user tones of each type that can be loaded into memory.  That number combined with the limit of wave files per tone type should give you an idea.  

[Popsel]

15 hours ago, Brad Saucier said:

Casio does not publish max number of samples for expansion memory because it can vary depending on the samples used.  You can probably do a little math to figure out the absolute maximum if you keep the samples extremely small.  There is a limit to the number of user tones of each type that can be loaded into memory.  That number combined with the limit of wave files per tone type should give you an idea.  

 

Hi!

First of all, I would like to point out that we are dealing with two types of memory. There is the flash memory for recording the sample data (for the MZ-X500 256MB) and the sample memory (a kind of system table) for organization, which is the subject here. The number in the "table" is limited. From the memory allocation, depending on which memory type is first full (data sample flash memory 256MB) or the memory in the "system table", the result in reality is max. importable number of samples.

I tried to calculate the total theoretical number of importable samples.

However, the result is not plausible.

The result,  58240 is unrealistic compared to much more expensive keyboards, such as Tyros4 (max. 9999)

 

 

 

If someone knows better, has experience with it, please reply to this topic.

 

Regards

Popsel

[Silvano Silva]

8 hours ago, Popsel said:

 

Hi!

First of all, I would like to point out that we are dealing with two types of memory. There is the flash memory for recording the sample data (for the MZ-X500 256MB) and the sample memory (a kind of system table) for organization, which is the subject here. The number in the "table" is limited. From the memory allocation, depending on which memory type is first full (data sample flash memory 256MB) or the memory in the "system table", the result in reality is max. importable number of samples.

I tried to calculate the total theoretical number of importable samples.

However, the result is not plausible.

The result,  58240 is unrealistic compared to much more expensive keyboards, such as Tyros4 (max. 9999)

 

 

 

If someone knows better, has experience with it, please reply to this topic.

 

Regards

Popsel

Excellent explanation.
But in practice it doesn't work.
I have ZTN tone with 50 wave samples.
One day I intend to format Casio and install the same Tone of 50 samples countless times until I get the DATA FULL warning
Only so to know the limitation of the MZ-X.

Casio could put this information in the SAMPLE MANAGER manual

[Silvano Silva]

23 hours ago, Brad Saucier said:

Casio does not publish max number of samples for expansion memory because it can vary depending on the samples used.  You can probably do a little math to figure out the absolute maximum if you keep the samples extremely small.  There is a limit to the number of user tones of each type that can be loaded into memory.  That number combined with the limit of wave files per tone type should give you an idea.  

disagree with you

it is very important for the User to know the limit of samples, as it ends up in the big mistake of thinking that the limit memory is the number of megabytes. When the concern is the quantity of samples. For those who program a lot of Samples this is very important for the dimensioning of their sample tones.

 

We know that the appropriate tones without using preload are maximum 2.5megabyte tones. We know that the total memory for samples rhythms registers pads is 256 megabytes for MZ-X500 and 128 Megabytes for MZ-X300

but we have no idea of the sample limits. I will have one a day to do a test and when I do I will inform  here.

[Silvano Silva]

This is not a criticism but a request for information from Casio. Another request would be to inform which consumption in polyphony Tones ZTN with waves consume in the system. Roland EA-7 explains that wave tones spend twice as much polyphony.

[Brad Saucier]

20 minutes ago, Silvano Silva said:

disagree with you

 

There is nothing to disagree with.  I did not give any opinions.  What I have written is simply a paraphrase of what is written in the MZX Sample Manager user manual, plus a suggestion of what anyone can try in order to calculate more information.   

 

17 minutes ago, Silvano Silva said:

Another request would be to inform which consumption in polyphony Tones ZTN with waves consume in the system.

 

User wave tones use the same polyphony as factory tones.  Each key uses one note of polyphony per layer when the sample is mono, 2 notes per layer when the sample is stereo.  

[Brad Saucier]

28 minutes ago, Silvano Silva said:

we have no idea of the sample limits.

 

 

The maximum number of samples for each tone type is shown in the manual. The maximum importable file size of a sample is listed earlier in the manual, as well as the maximum recommended size of the tone file that is output.  You can load tones that meet these specifications until the system reaches the memory limit.  

 

[Popsel]

Hello,

this information has been known for years, but does not answer my question. I have experience with the Tyros4 and built-in 1GB memory expansion especially for samples. In my experience the limit of the maximum number of samples supported by the instrument firmware is reached faster than the 1GB sample flash memory. This has the effect that only about half of 1GB of memory can be used (depending on the length of the samples used). I think it could be similar with CASIO MZ-X. It is clear that an indication of the maximum number of samples that can be used by the system interacts with the storage requirements of the samples. Nevertheless, there is a maximum number of usable samples from the operating system (firmware V1.60). If there is no other way, you have to research it yourself. In preparation, you had to delete all existing user data in order to have the maximum available system storage space available. You could load a tone with 100 extremely short samples from the USB stick again and again until an error message / warning is displayed. The number of successful imports multiplied by 100 then gives an order of magnitude, the max. importable samples.

[Silvano Silva]

16 hours ago, Brad Saucier said:

 

 

The maximum number of samples for each tone type is shown in the manual. The maximum importable file size of a sample is listed earlier in the manual, as well as the maximum recommended size of the tone file that is output.  You can load tones that meet these specifications until the system reaches the memory limit.  

 

Brad forgives me but you don't understand the logic here.
We all know the sample limits per ZTN.
But we don't know about the total samples that the system supports in version 1.6.
Read in the topic above that well before the total expenditure in megabytes occurs, the DATAFULL warning appears. This limit is broken with large numbers of samples regardless of memory in megabytes.

[Silvano Silva]

3 hours ago, Popsel said:

Hello,

this information has been known for years, but does not answer my question. I have experience with the Tyros4 and built-in 1GB memory expansion especially for samples. In my experience the limit of the maximum number of samples supported by the instrument firmware is reached faster than the 1GB sample flash memory. This has the effect that only about half of 1GB of memory can be used (depending on the length of the samples used). I think it could be similar with CASIO MZ-X. It is clear that an indication of the maximum number of samples that can be used by the system interacts with the storage requirements of the samples. Nevertheless, there is a maximum number of usable samples from the operating system (firmware V1.60). If there is no other way, you have to research it yourself. In preparation, you had to delete all existing user data in order to have the maximum available system storage space available. You could load a tone with 100 extremely short samples from the USB stick again and again until an error message / warning is displayed. The number of successful imports multiplied by 100 then gives an order of magnitude, the max. importable samples.

Very well friend.
You understand my logic because you must use Samples resources a lot.
The Casio MZX has excellent internal tone editing tools but we are going well beyond novice users.
The feeling of putting a ZTN tone sample and mixing it with an internal tone is unique and wonderful at Casio. I have a Gleen Miller orchestra with factory ZTn tones and Samples Tones mixed. Casio goes much further with surprising results.

 

[Popsel]

Hi Silvano,

it seems like we have to find out for ourselves, like so many things about the MZ-X. The MZ-X has potential, but unfortunately insufficient documentation. For this reason, I don't think the MZ-X has had as much success as Casio would have liked. I bought my MZ-X300 & 500 about 1.5 years ago at a bargain sale price. Unfortunately I noticed very quickly that in my opinion the instruction manual does not explain the possibilities of the instrument sufficiently. I had to find out many things by experimenting myself. In order not to forget the knowledge again, I went to the trouble and wrote several additional manuals. So I can read if I forget. I was looking for a sampler with keyboard that would allow samples to be played on the keyboard. The MZ-X offers these possibilities and many more. However, I don't find working with the Sample Manager innovative. This was probably written by programmers who do not work with the MZ-X and samples themselves. There is a lot to improve. I don't expect any more updates from Casio because it seems to be uneconomical. But I see this from a different perspective. As a user, I would like to have better software that makes work easier. I'm looking for a solution ...

[Jokeyman123]

You might want to study the IDES 4.0 sample manager-although I'm sure it will not be compatible with the MZ-X500-it does illustrate what Casio was able to do with a relatively simple but pretty effective sample manager-which is part of the IDES 4.0 and I have used quite successfully with my old PX575. There are no real advanced sample editing-just simple root pitch/keyboard layout etc. I do all my editing for wav samples in software for truncating/loopping cross-fading anyway, then IDES makes it very easy to split or layer whatever samples I already edited across the keys.

[Brad Saucier]

3 hours ago, Popsel said:

The MZ-X has potential, but unfortunately insufficient documentation

 

Let us know when you find something that is not documented, so we can attempt to have it corrected.  

[Popsel]

16 minutes ago, Brad Saucier said:

 

Let us know when you find something that is not documented, so we can attempt to have it corrected.  

 

e.g. the maximum number of samples supported by the firmware V1.60

 

[Silvano Silva]

23 hours ago, Popsel said:

Hi Silvano,

it seems like we have to find out for ourselves, like so many things about the MZ-X. The MZ-X has potential, but unfortunately insufficient documentation. For this reason, I don't think the MZ-X has had as much success as Casio would have liked. I bought my MZ-X300 & 500 about 1.5 years ago at a bargain sale price. Unfortunately I noticed very quickly that in my opinion the instruction manual does not explain the possibilities of the instrument sufficiently. I had to find out many things by experimenting myself. In order not to forget the knowledge again, I went to the trouble and wrote several additional manuals. So I can read if I forget. I was looking for a sampler with keyboard that would allow samples to be played on the keyboard. The MZ-X offers these possibilities and many more. However, I don't find working with the Sample Manager innovative. This was probably written by programmers who do not work with the MZ-X and samples themselves. There is a lot to improve. I don't expect any more updates from Casio because it seems to be uneconomical. But I see this from a different perspective. As a user, I would like to have better software that makes work easier. I'm looking for a solution ...

Casio could easily resolve it by placing an SF2 soundfonts converter for ZTN in the Sample Manager.
So we could use tons of free softwares from the internet to create our samples and anyone who has no experience could download thousands of free Sf2 and install on MZX.
How did a STY Rhythm Converter could do with SF2

[Jokeyman123]

I have used a program called audio compositor for a long time-which was unique in that it could change many sample formats to many others-I used it for mostly ensoniq sample formats-unfortunately I don't think the program is supported anymore, and is too old to have kept up with many of these newer sampling formats such as the Casios, but it translates sf2 soundfonts to many different keyboard formats. 

[Popsel]

1 hour ago, Silvano Silva said:

Casio could easily resolve it by placing an SF2 soundfonts converter for ZTN in the Sample Manager.
So we could use tons of free softwares from the internet to create our samples and anyone who has no experience could download thousands of free Sf2 and install on MZX.
How did a STY Rhythm Converter could do with SF2

 

Hi,

The problem is that Casio uses a proprietary sample format for the MZ-X models. I contacted Chicken Systems last year and asked if the company would be willing to support the MZ-X series. I provided all the information available. The programmer later informed me that it is a proprietary format that apparently is also encrypted. After a few weeks I asked again. But it doesn't look as if anything can be expected from this side. Casio was unwilling to cooperate, he said. So the only way would be to try to find out something via "reverese engineering". But that would be a very tedious and time-consuming way with an uncertain result. Since then I have also researched myself. If there is a solution, then it is in any case a very time-consuming one and not a project that you program on a weekend. Lets see how it goes on...