How many samples does the MZ-X support?

[Silvano Silva]

3 hours ago, Popsel said:

 

Hi,

The problem is that Casio uses a proprietary sample format for the MZ-X models. I contacted Chicken Systems last year and asked if the company would be willing to support the MZ-X series. I provided all the information available. The programmer later informed me that it is a proprietary format that apparently is also encrypted. After a few weeks I asked again. But it doesn't look as if anything can be expected from this side. Casio was unwilling to cooperate, he said. So the only way would be to try to find out something via "reverese engineering". But that would be a very tedious and time-consuming way with an uncertain result. Since then I have also researched myself. If there is a solution, then it is in any case a very time-consuming one and not a project that you program on a weekend. Lets see how it goes on...

 

I use the extreme sample converter especially for Loop points which saves a lot of time. The SAMPLE MANAGER itself would suffice to have an SF2 converter to use other software for faster editing. Casio developers would not need to add additions to SAMPLE MANAGER by simply converting SF2 files

[Popsel]

11 hours ago, Silvano Silva said:

 

I use the extreme sample converter especially for Loop points which saves a lot of time. The SAMPLE MANAGER itself would suffice to have an SF2 converter to use other software for faster editing. Casio developers would not need to add additions to SAMPLE MANAGER by simply converting SF2 files

 

I use the free software "Wavosaur" for editing and looping.

 

Casio probably didn't choose to use SoundFonts for several reasons:
1. When using SoundFonts, Casio would have to pay license fees.
2. Not all parameters of SoundFonts are supported by the MZ-X.
3. Casio unfortunately uses "relative" parameters for Melody Tones, which means that an exact translation is not possible.
4. HexLayer use absolute parameters, but much more than is available in SoundFont.

 

I could go on with the list.

That’s why it’s difficult.
You don't get any support from Casio as a developer.

Everything has to be found out very laboriously by experiments.

John Melas, the Developer of the Editors for the Yamaha Synths needed years to reverese engeneer Yamaha's Format.

So it looks like this behavior is unfortunately common among instrument manufacturers.
It would be of great help if Casio documented the proprietary sample format.

[Jokeyman123]

And yet, even more bewilderingly-my old PX575 uses simple .wav files, as do a few of the other WK Casios that use the same operating system. And of course, .wav files can be edited with Wavosaur, Goldwave, Audacity an even the Old sound Forge, probably a few others I've forgotten. I have 4 samples Icreated and  used in that old board-a soprano sax, a flute, a full drumkit and 10 voice samples-full phrases mapped across the 88-keys and I still have room for at least one more full keyboard sample or more. i think it only has 2.5MB of sample memory, not upgradeable. why Casio abandoned this approach, I have no idea.

[Brad Saucier]

Just now, Jokeyman123 said:

And yet, even more bewilderingly-my old PX575 uses simple .wav files, as do a few of the other WK Casios that use the same operating system.

 

So does the MZX.  The MZX Sample Manager not only loads WAV files, it can load AIFF as well.  

[Allanon]

13 hours ago, Popsel said:

 

...
That’s why it’s difficult.
You don't get any support from Casio as a developer.

Everything has to be found out very laboriously by experiments.

John Melas, the Developer of the Editors for the Yamaha Synths needed years to reverese engeneer Yamaha's Format.

So it looks like this behavior is unfortunately common among instrument manufacturers.
It would be of great help if Casio documented the proprietary sample format.

 

I'm trying to understand the file format used to store pads, I really miss a PC editor and I'll try to build an editor when I'll have figured out the format.

Data are not encrypted and not compressed, at least it seems so, but the job is really time consuming:
- change data

- export

- check what's changed in the exported file

multiplied for every single parameter

 

Why manufacturers does not make public the saved file format it's a big mistery for me
 

[Popsel]

4 hours ago, Allanon said:

 

I'm trying to understand the file format used to store pads, I really miss a PC editor and I'll try to build an editor when I'll have figured out the format.

Data are not encrypted and not compressed, at least it seems so, but the job is really time consuming:
- change data

- export

- check what's changed in the exported file

multiplied for every single parameter

 

Why manufacturers does not make public the saved file format it's a big mistery for me
 

 

Hi,

I think the data for the pads is different than the data that can be created with the Sample Manager.

I can e.g. not reopen data saved on a USB stick with the MZ-X using the Sample Manager.

From Sample Manager to MZ-X only.

[Allanon]

 @Popsel Hi
Well, to be honest I've not looked yet at how tones are stored, I had just a quick look some time ago to what the Sample Manager stores but since a tone has many more parameters than a pad data I've started from them to try to understand the logic behind.
I hope to map the pad data in a week or two since I'm quiet busy with my real job now...

Btw ZTN seems not much different from pad data, just more complex because of the more parameters & eventually custom samples with velocity triggers, etc...
I don't know why the Sample Manager cannot reopen tones coming from the MZ-X, I never tried.
I'm pretty sure that there is some sample data conversion (compression) between SampleManager->MZ-X and back, maybe we cannot reopen tones because a bug or by design. 
Maybe the Sample Manager cannot decompress sample data... who knows... we need to investigate

 

[JEANN]

MUITO INTERESSANTE ESTE ASSUNTO ABORDADO. PARABÉNS

[Silvano Silva]

 

Friends I took the test
The MZ-X supports 1,000 mono wave samples

[Popsel]

10 hours ago, Silvano Silva said:

 

Friends I took the test
The MZ-X supports 1,000 mono wave samples

 

Hello,
thank you for your efforts. It helps me a lot, for organization and the use of own samples.
Could you please try if it is possible to load other sample based types like DRUM tones or HexLayer tones after the DATA FULL message for melody tones.  It could be that Casio has reserved a different memory area for this.

 

Greetings from Germany.

[Silvano Silva]

On 9/30/2020 at 3:20 AM, Popsel said:

 

Hello,
thank you for your efforts. It helps me a lot, for organization and the use of own samples.
Could you please try if it is possible to load other sample based types like DRUM tones or HexLayer tones after the DATA FULL message for melody tones.  It could be that Casio has reserved a different memory area for this.

 

Greetings from Germany.

The mandatory memory limit is 1,000 WAV MONO SAMPLES. If you exceed the wave limit, nothing else will be possible to store on your MZ-X even if they are files that did not use wav samples.

 

Greetings from Brazil

[Popsel]

3 hours ago, Silvano Silva said:

The mandatory memory limit is 1,000 WAV MONO SAMPLES. If you exceed the wave limit, nothing else will be possible to store on your MZ-X even if they are files that did not use wav samples.

 

Greetings from Brazil

 

Hello,
Thanks for the explanation. From this I conclude that the available CPU RAM memory has no fixed allocation, but is dynamically allocated to the different data types. So for samples the limit is 1000 mono samples. For the other datatypes there are not that many user memory spaces available anyway. Fortunately I don't need a huge amount of samples at the same time for my use of the sampler. With a bit of advance planning I can use the sampler in a reasonable way and the goal is to keep the number of samples as small as possible. Luckily I don't need any elaborately sampled piano sounds with several layers for my plans. Thanks for your efforts. It is really helpful to know these relationships before creating your own samples.  I guess stereo samples do not need more CPU RAM than mono samples.

Greetings from Germany.

[Silvano Silva]

On 10/3/2020 at 2:45 PM, Popsel said:

 

Hello,
Thanks for the explanation. From this I conclude that the available CPU RAM memory has no fixed allocation, but is dynamically allocated to the different data types. So for samples the limit is 1000 mono samples. For the other datatypes there are not that many user memory spaces available anyway. Fortunately I don't need a huge amount of samples at the same time for my use of the sampler. With a bit of advance planning I can use the sampler in a reasonable way and the goal is to keep the number of samples as small as possible. Luckily I don't need any elaborately sampled piano sounds with several layers for my plans. Thanks for your efforts. It is really helpful to know these relationships before creating your own samples.  I guess stereo samples do not need more CPU RAM than mono samples.

Greetings from Germany.

Stereo samples use twice as much memory as the system understands two independent samples. I work more with mono samples because it is inside the MZ-X when adding reverb effects that I recover an ambience.

[Popsel]

Quote

Stereo samples use twice as much memory as the system understands two independent samples. I work more with mono samples because it is inside the MZ-X when adding reverb effects that I recover an ambience.

 

Hi,

It is clear that stereo samples take up twice as much space in flash memory. But I'm talking about the RAM memory of the CPU (i.e. the RAM memory needed to manage the samples). Do you have a proof for your statement that Stereo Samples MZ-X are internally managed as two mono samples and therefore 1 stereo sample takes as much RAM memory as two mono samples? I know that this was the case with the old AKAI samplers. With WAV files the sample data is stored interleaved (alternately left and right channel), but still in one single file. The CASIO Sample Manager converts the WAV file into the proprietary CASIO format. Hmm... let's see, if a stereo sample is actually CASIO internally split into two mono samples, then when you select a stereo sample on the MZX, you should see two mono samples (one for left and one for right). But I have not seen that yet.

 

Greeting from rainy Germany

[Brad Saucier]

Silvano is correct.  Simply look at the wave list in a hex layer tone layer.  You will see the stereo grand piano is comprised of left and right mono wave sample sets.  A total of 8 waves make up the main stereo grand piano tone in the MZX series, 4 left, and 4 right.

[Popsel]

 

Quote

Silvano is correct.  Simply look at the wave list in a hex layer tone layer.  You will see the stereo grand piano is comprised of left and right mono wave sample sets.  A total of 8 waves make up the main stereo grand piano tone in the MZX series, 4 left, and 4 right.

 

Hi,

It is clear that stereo samples are split in the HexLayer. The reason is: HexLayer Tones only support MONO samples.
Stereo samples are only supported for Melody Tones.
So my question refers to STEREO MELODY TONES. There you can import stereo WAV samples in the MZ-X Sample Manager.

[Brad Saucier]

What you see in a hex layer tone are the raw samples that all other tones are made of.  The MZ-X500 does not store stereo waves in memory, and later split those into mono waves for hex layer mode.  Stereo samples are stored as split mono samples for use with all tones.  The sample manager splits the files.  This is the way all Casio keyboards with sample ability work.  

[Popsel]

Hello,
I've tried it.
In the Tone Edit mode the name of the Melody Tone is displayed, but no information about the (stereo) sample name.
So in Melody Tone mode the sample is played in stereo. This is what was to be expected.

Then I selected a new HexLayer Tone and tried out the user samples at layer 1. Even in the Hex Layer Edit Mode no sample names are displayed for User Samples. A list with "Split User Samples" appears. I have tried this list. There I could hear my original stereo sample in MONO on 3 entries.

This means that the hex layers are not suitable for stereo samples.
A workaround is to split the stereo sample into left and right channels by splitting it into two layers with the Casio Sample Manager at "Convert Setting" -> Import Channel. So one layer for the left channel and another layer for the right channel. Alternatively you can select "L "+"R"-> Mono. Then the result is a mono sample, which is created by mixing the stereo sample.

So much for HexLayer Samples.

My question, if Melody Tone Stereo Samples really need the double CPU/RAM/management memory (of course double Flash memory) I could not answer yet.
You would have to import as many stereo samples as possible into Melody Tone until the "Data Full" message is displayed.
Unfortunately I don't have time to test it now.
 

[Silvano Silva]

On 10/7/2020 at 12:12 PM, Popsel said:

Hello,
I've tried it.
In the Tone Edit mode the name of the Melody Tone is displayed, but no information about the (stereo) sample name.
So in Melody Tone mode the sample is played in stereo. This is what was to be expected.

Then I selected a new HexLayer Tone and tried out the user samples at layer 1. Even in the Hex Layer Edit Mode no sample names are displayed for User Samples. A list with "Split User Samples" appears. I have tried this list. There I could hear my original stereo sample in MONO on 3 entries.

This means that the hex layers are not suitable for stereo samples.
A workaround is to split the stereo sample into left and right channels by splitting it into two layers with the Casio Sample Manager at "Convert Setting" -> Import Channel. So one layer for the left channel and another layer for the right channel. Alternatively you can select "L "+"R"-> Mono. Then the result is a mono sample, which is created by mixing the stereo sample.

So much for HexLayer Samples.

My question, if Melody Tone Stereo Samples really need the double CPU/RAM/management memory (of course double Flash memory) I could not answer yet.
You would have to import as many stereo samples as possible into Melody Tone until the "Data Full" message is displayed.
Unfortunately I don't have time to test it now.
 

Hello friend I will not do the test with stereo samples because I have already solved one of the biggest mysteries regarding the limits of the MZX. I'm satisfied.
What you question may be coherent may be that mzx can also accommodate the same number of stereo samples for having an organization table.
The certainty is that stereo samples spend twice as much memory and place 1000 stereo samples only if it is in small files.
THE BIG ISSUE IS THAT THE MZX IS FAILING THE SAMPLED TONE TABLE ANYWAY AND DISAPPEARING WITH WAV SAMPLES.
 I can win by putting more than 100 megabytes in memory using little preload but with the wav samples disappearing bug it gets very complicated

[Silvano Silva]

Casio could solve the BUG WAV SAMPLES and also increase the sample limit TABLE.
The Preload we managed to solve obeying the limit of 2.5 megabytes per Tone.

 

[Popsel]

14 hours ago, Silvano Silva said:

THE BIG ISSUE IS THAT THE MZX IS FAILING THE SAMPLED TONE TABLE ANYWAY AND DISAPPEARING WITH WAV SAMPLES.

 

Silvano,

could you please explain the described problem in more detail. I haven't heard anything about this yet.

 

Greetings

Popsel

[Silvano Silva]

On 10/11/2020 at 2:03 AM, Popsel said:

 

Silvano,

could you please explain the described problem in more detail. I haven't heard anything about this yet.

 

Greetings

Popsel

Perhaps because the staff does not use samples in quantity like us Brazilians. We have a wide continental culture and require a lot of specific tones especially Drums. When you install many wave-based ZTN tones it is common for some tones to give Bugs. Last octave notes disappear. The solution is to reinstall the Tone that generated the Bug. And this bug usually happens inside the Casio MZ-X. The Keyboard without a plausible reason this error occurs

[Popsel]

10 hours ago, Silvano Silva said:

Perhaps because the staff does not use samples in quantity like us Brazilians. We have a wide continental culture and require a lot of specific tones especially Drums. When you install many wave-based ZTN tones it is common for some tones to give Bugs. Last octave notes disappear. The solution is to reinstall the Tone that generated the Bug. And this bug usually happens inside the Casio MZ-X. The Keyboard without a plausible reason this error occurs

 

Hi,

thank you Silvano,

this problem is new to me. But it is good to know how to "repair" the tone and that this problem occurs mainly in the last octave. In Europe the MZ-X is apparently not very common.  At that time, when it was launched, there was no sample manager. Comparative tests were therefore mostly done with the preset sounds and rhythms. It is clear that the competitors offer more in this point. But the strength of the MZ-X lies in the many creative possibilities, which are again insufficiently documented. There are no examples how to combine the extensive functions. If you invest some time yourself, you can quickly create more interesting sounds with the MZ-X than the sounds provided by Casio. Also the quality of sampled sounds is usually better. This probably has to do with the fact that your own samples are not compressed as much to save storage space. In my experience even sampled sounds sound more powerful and voluminous than the preset sounds.

 

Greetings from Germany

Popsel

[Brad Saucier]

The MZ-X series employs a lossless CD quality sound engine.  Factory samples and user samples are using the same system.  Some of the factory samples are from legacy content, so they won't demonstrate the full quality of the sound engine like newer high quality samples will.  Some of the factory samples are new and show off the amazing sound quality.  Quality sounds are in there, you just have to pull them out.  https://soundcloud.app.goo.gl/MiWX

[Silvano Silva]

On 10/23/2020 at 1:17 AM, Popsel said:

 

Hi,

thank you Silvano,

this problem is new to me. But it is good to know how to "repair" the tone and that this problem occurs mainly in the last octave. In Europe the MZ-X is apparently not very common.  At that time, when it was launched, there was no sample manager. Comparative tests were therefore mostly done with the preset sounds and rhythms. It is clear that the competitors offer more in this point. But the strength of the MZ-X lies in the many creative possibilities, which are again insufficiently documented. There are no examples how to combine the extensive functions. If you invest some time yourself, you can quickly create more interesting sounds with the MZ-X than the sounds provided by Casio. Also the quality of sampled sounds is usually better. This probably has to do with the fact that your own samples are not compressed as much to save storage space. In my experience even sampled sounds sound more powerful and voluminous than the preset sounds.

 

Greetings from Germany

Popsel

O will launch a New set of pianos for MZX. O like te Kawai Ex, Royal Piano, Rhodes three Layers and more stuff. Engine Áudio from the mzx is the beast.