Grand piano/Mellow piano

[Gr3yWolf]

@fcw3 Thanks for the confirmation.

 

@Brad Saucier I have had many keyboards (Casio, Technics, Yamaha etc...) and a couple of digital pianos (2 Yamahas - DGX630 and P515), I have also had experience playing acoustic pianos, so its not that I am just not used to playing, ive been playing since i was about 8 years old, though not professionally - more of a hobby. Its not that I am not pressing the keys hard enough, ive watched Youtube demos with people playing obviously very lightly and even then the sound from the demos is just much more alive, by comparison mine sounds somewhat dead, very little life in the sound. Its just an overall higher tonal quality on the demos and does sound very good in comparison to an acoustic, very lively but without being too bright or too mellow, its a nice rounded sound. Whereas my unit is the complete opposite really, sounding very dull/muddy.

[Mike Martin]

Let me state this again. There is NO difference in sound in any PX-S3000. The difference in TONE is the difference that YOU are putting into the instrument by playing it. The PX-S3000 (and other Privia's) is one of the most dynamic instruments available. If it sounds dull, it most likely that you need to change the velocity setting to fit your playing style. You're not reaching the upper velocity limits. Connecting it to a computer and noting the velocity values when using different curves would verify this.

 

The only other difference is HOW the instrument is being recorded - directly on the instrument on to USB .wav or through external equipment.  If the factory presets haven't been modified by the user, there is no difference in sound. 

 

 

[Jokeyman123]

I apologize for my previous posts-did not wish to create "fake news" here.

 

I practice every week on a 1) PX560 2) PX350 3) PX575 (older sound engine) CDP230R and the XW-P1 which has similar (I believe) piano samples as the WK/CTK series. All of these keyboards-there is almost identical similarity in the style selections of acoustic pianos-there is a 'rock" style-a "soft' style, a "classic" grand, several others which use identical samples per keyboard-the difference in tones is due to built-in DSP settings, and that is all. I do not (yet) own the PX3000-but it must be a logical assumption that the samples in these acoustic pianos are at least as clean and accurate as the PX560/350, as is the choice of piano tones-I've studied the manuals.  Even the older PX575 has a very similar selection of acoustic pianos-and with the right DSP settings, will cut through even my more complex arrangements, and all of these have pianos that will sound muted or soft, or extremely bright and cutting-regardless of touch settings. Turn off touch sensitivity-listen to what each piano sounds like without touch sensitivity. I have examined the raw samples in the PX560 used to create the acoustic pianos-from the very soft or muted pianos to the harshest cutting pianos-the samples are the same. 

 

There is a huge divergence of opinion on what a "real" acoustic piano sounds like, this is an argument that will never be settled. I was shocked to recently sit down at my friend's new Baldwin upright-a very fine one, he is a pro player/educator who hand-picked this piano, so it was good example-and I was disappointed that it sounded so unrealistic (!) compared to my digitals-quite muted actually-and the keys, yikes-I wasn't sure there were strings in it-I've gotten so accustomed to the sensitivity of digitals-I had to really dig in to play it at all, it was quite "mushy".... And this is a real piano!!!! As is said about the stock market.....perception is everything.

[Gr3yWolf]

@Mike Martin

13 hours ago, Mike Martin said:

There is NO difference in sound in any PX-S3000

 

I appreciate that there 'should not' be any difference in sound, but to state flat out that there is absolutely NO difference in sound between ANY PX-S3000 when you cannot possibly Know that with any degree on certainly without personally hearing them all is (and im not being funny, nor do i mean any offense) a bit arrogant. What if there is a fault with some of the units, which has been suggestion/implied?

 

13 hours ago, Mike Martin said:

The difference in TONE is the difference that YOU are putting into the instrument by playing it

 

Not that it was your intent, but i find this just a little insulting. So it CANNOT be the instrument and therefore anyone who hears a difference MUST be causing it themselves? The bottom line is that no matter how soft or hard i play i just cannot get my particular unit to match the tonal quality of that of the demos on youtube. I have tried every touch sensitivity value, and apart from making the piano louder with more attack i cannot reproduce the tone of that of the demos. Im sure this instrument has great dynamic range, but looking values on a computer does not tell you how an instrument actually sounds.

 

I have a question: were the demos recorded via line-out? If so, does the line-out output sound different than that of both the internal speakers and headphone jacks? If so... then maybe this is the issue(?).

 

@Jokeyman123

12 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

There is a huge divergence of opinion on what a "real" acoustic piano sounds like, this is an argument that will never be settled.

 

I agree, but in this case, I at least, am not comparing the tone from my PX-S3000 to that of an acoustic piano and noticing a difference, i am comparing 2 PX-S3000s and to my ears they do not sound identical. The demos have much more clarity and sound 'alive', whereas the tone on my unit sounds flat and dull by comparison, almost as if the sound is being compressed with the tonal range of each note being limited somehow, an example would be like if you were to listen to music under water - not quite as dramatic as that but similar if you know what i mean.

[Dmoss3]

So I have been scouring the internet to find answers to the problem I am having with my Casio Px870 that I received yesterday. I am having the same problem. The sound quality is too dull, almost muffled. I have to turn the volume know almost all the way to max to hear “normally”. And it’s not my playing style. I went by Guitar center today and played on some keyboards half the price of this px870 and the sound difference was immediately noticeable. The digital pianos sounds in Guitar center are much more vivid and bright. 
 

I was hoping it was a setting that was off, but no matter what I do, the sound quality and volume is too low. I’m glad I’m not the only one with this problem, and it’s disappointing. I hope there is a solution to be had. 
 

David in TN

[Dmoss3]

So I posted about my Piano sounding muffled. I think I have the answer. It’s in the touch response function. The lower the number the better. A lower number setting on that really brightened the piano up quite a bit. Concert grand seems the best for me. I hope this work for you Gr3ywolf

[Gr3yWolf]

@Dmoss3 Thank you for the suggestion, unfortunately i have tried altering the touch response function, and while using a lighter setting such as 'Light 2' does help with the volume and makes the piano sound louder with more punch/attack, it doesnt solve the issue i am with the overall tone being inherently dull sounding - it also reduces the dynamic range making it harder to play softly. 

 

I am glad to hear that it helped with your situation though. Happy playing

[Mike Martin]

@Gr3yWolf My intent is not to be condescending, I'm sorry if it came across that way. Our sound design team spends YEARS developing the piano sounds and these presets simply do not  change over the lifetime of the instrument. 

 

11 hours ago, Gr3yWolf said:

I have a question: were the demos recorded via line-out? If so, does the line-out output sound different than that of both the internal speakers and headphone jacks? If so... then maybe this is the issue(?).

 

In my case, yes demos were recorded via the line output. I can't speak for other Youtube videos. But the line outputs through studio monitors will sound different than the sound through the built-in speakers or headphones.  All speaker systems are different. How are you listening to Youtube demos vs the piano? 

 

11 hours ago, Gr3yWolf said:

i am comparing 2 PX-S3000s and to my ears they do not sound identical

You had PX-S3000 keyboards side by side? 

 

[Gr3yWolf]

@Mike Martin I am not saying that the presets have changed over time, what i am suggesting is that there is the possibility that there may be a fault with some units.

 

I dont use the line-out output, i am listening to the demos via the headphone jack using the same headphones and i am not hearing the same tonal quality , so i was wondering if recording direct from the line-out is giving a different/better/clearer tone than using the speakers and headphones.

 

When i say that i am comparing 2 PX-S3000s, i am referring to my unit vs those in the demos and i am listening to them the same way via the same headphones and not hearing the same thing, the sound from the ones in the demos sounds much cleaner/clearer/more alive/crisp, with a better quality tone, and less dull sound compared to mine.

 

I have had 2 different PX-S3000 units now and neither of them sounded as good as the demos, particularly the piano which is what i was interested in. In fact it was after hearing this piano tone from the demos that convinced me to make my purchase as the tone i was hearing sounded very good indeed, so when i finally was able to get one and found that this really good piano sound i heard from the demos was absent from my unit/s; gone was the impressive tone i was hearing from the demos (again using the same headphones, with no audio enhancements enabled on my computer that could alter the sound, i also listened to the demos on different devices, all sounded good/the same), replaced by a somewhat dull/flat sound, lacking in the clarity i was hearing from the demos.

 

I wish none of this was true and it was just a serious case of user error, but i am very familiar with keyboards and their various settings and related effects on sound, and nothing i have tried has fixed the issue for me.

 

I am not angry, and hopefully i dont come across that way, i am just disappointed that the sound i bought the instrument for is just not what i am hearing/getting. I am open to other suggestions.

[Mike Martin]

@Gr3yWolf

When you listen to Youtube videos, specifically what kind of headphones are you using? I need the make and model. How are you connecting these headphones to your computer, directly or through an audio interface? 

 

Also to clarify, you never had two PX-S3000 side by side? You only are comparing what you're hearing online vs what you hear in person correct?

[Gr3yWolf]

@Mike Martin

I have tried 2 different headphones: Sennheiser HD 555 & HD 650, and also some IEMs: Blon BL-03. They are connected directly to the computer (and also smartphone and tablet - all sound the same).

 

Correct - not 2 side by side, only comparing my unit to the one i am hearing on the youtube demos.

[fcw3]

I think what’s getting left out of this conversation, as suggested by Gr3yWolf, is the possibility that there are some defective units out there. We’re talking about a piece of equipment with a lot of complex technology built in. Other manufacturers of high quality, reliable sophisticated electronics (I’m thinking Apple) occasionally have issues with a device and/or update. I was initially hoping it was user error ( which I think can be ruled out, given that the same thing is happening to multiple users on units straight from the box); or a fixable programming error. 

[fcw3]

not sure what, if anything, to make of this, but when I play the demo song on the 3000, it sounds great; and I had to turn the volume down-anything above 11 o'clock and I was getting blown out of the room. Turning off the demo song and going back to grand piano mode (with keyboard touch at the lightest setting, -2) I could not replicate anything close to that sound, playing as hard as I could (I'm 6'2", 200 lbs, former collegiate athlete and still very active). 

[Brad Saucier]

Can one of you post a video demonstrating the differences in sound?

[Mike Martin]

On 5/20/2020 at 7:33 PM, Gr3yWolf said:

Grand Piano and Mellow Piano.WAVI figured it out. Here is a recording, i am alternating between Grand Piano 01 and Mellow Piano 03, to me they both sound pretty dull and pretty much identical.

 

Though i am unsure if the wav file properly capture what i am hearing.

 

Edit: Sorry its just 3 notes, wanted to keep things simple.

 

 

This example sounds exactly as it should. When played at such as soft velocity, these two tones do sound nearly identical. The difference between the two is what happens when you use A LOT more velocity. The primary 001 GrPnoConcert gets significantly brighter at the upper velocities while the 003 GrPno Mellow tone does not.

 

 

 

[Mike Martin]

Here is an audio example using the 001 GrPnoConcert and the 003 GrPno Mellow tones. I won't tell you which order they are being played in.

 

 

Piano Example1.mp3

[Mike Martin]

Here is another example, this time played aggressively. 

 

 

Piano Example2.mp3

[kybdsammer]

I want to throw out another possibility for the difference in sound.  I wonder if the headphones used and where they are plugged in could make a difference in the perceived sound quality.  What I mean is if the same headphones are plugged into the PX-S3000 headphone jack vs plugged into a computer or cell phone headphone jack, will that make a difference?  Perhaps the impedance of your headphone models affect the PX-S3000 output in a different way than a computer or cell phone.

 

@Gr3yWolf 

When you listen to YouTube videos, are you plugging your headphones directly to the computer or cell phone, or do you route the computer or cell phone output to the keyboard input and then listen from your headphones connected to the keyboard?

 

This may explain why line outs sound "normal" while headphones sound different.

 

Are there any Casio recommendations on headphone impedance for best results or does it not make any difference?

[Mike Martin]

@Gr3yWolf

Here is the music file used to make the second audio example. This can play back on your own PX-S3000 to confirm. It should sound identical to the example #2 above. 

1. Download the file
2. Put in on a USB drive in a folder labeled MUSICDAT
3. Put the USB Drive into the PX-S3000
4. Press and hold FUNCTION on the PX-S3000
5. Scroll Left < three times and you'll find the MEDIA menu, Press ENTER
6. Scroll and select LOAD, Press ENTER
7. Choose RECORD SONG and Press ENTER
8. Select the File "PNO_2" and press ENTER
9. Choose the song location you want (this will overwrite any existing user song), then press ENTER. It may ask you to REPLACE.
10. From Song Mode on the PX-S3000 choose the location where you loaded the song and press PLAY.

 

 

PNO_2.MRF

[Casiofun]

This discussion illustrates why no piano should be bought without trying in person. You tube videos are just not reliable when used for this purpose. Thats why you need to know the return policy of the seller if you are dissatisfied after the sale.

[Trooplewis]

On the PX-S3000 I just got last week the Mellow piano sounds like the Concert Grand with the "quiet" pedal pressed.  It is definitely more muted than "01"

[Gr3yWolf]

@Mike Martin Example 1: 001 then 003, Example 2: 003 then 001

 

I tried the file on my PS-X3000, sounded better than what i am hearing when playing myself (regardless of how i play - soft or hard), though i wouldnt call it identical, the recordings you posted still have a much better tone than i am getting on my instrument, the recordings sound more lush and detailed, whereas what i am hearing on my PX-S3000 sounds flat and dull. I also want to note that i concur with what user fcw3 said about the actual demo song on the PX-S3000 sounding better than when actually playing - i know this shouldn't be the case as supposedly the demo plays back the song using the inbuilt samples... not sure why this is happening. Is it possible there could be a fault in which something either is being enabled or isn't being enabled that shouldn't or should be when the user plays vs when a demo is played back...?

 

@kybdsammer I connect my headphones direct to the source - computer and/or smartphone etc...

[Jokeyman123]

Here is a possibility-a guess based upon my monitoring with 7-8 different cans and hi-fi earbuds, in many 'boards, keys and otherwise.....

 

If you use identical phones for monitoring your computer and for monitoring your PX-S3000-there will most definitely be a difference in what you hear-without getting overly technical-the audio output from a computer internal soundchip-desktop or laptop will have a different "impedance"-a different audio matching response than that from a Privia-any Privia or synthesizer. I have tested this with many headsets over the years-what sounds great connected to a digital keyboard may sound dull connected to a computer-and the opposite is true-regardless of the quality of phones. My AKG K52s sound dreadful on the Privias-well not dreadful but muffled and no high-end response-but when connected to my mp3 players or laptop-sound like a different set of phones-the clarity and sensitivity are much better.  I also have pro AKGs for monitoring-flat responses which sound terrible on my other audio equipment-but have superior clarity and definition on all my Privias. Only my Samson and Chinese imitation AKGs-(Superlux HDs) although not the best for pro monitoring-pretty bass heavy but amazing frequency range and definition for such cheap phones-seem to come close to sounding the same with both my laptop computers, mp3 players and the Privias, so go figure.

 

The Privias seem to be picky as to which headsets they like-that will bring out the true sound of the acoustic pianos. The wrong cans make these sound dull as you've described-but with right ones-that are more perfectly "impedance matched" a black art in itself-what a difference.  I personally don't like the more muted Privia acoustic piano tones-favor the others with more pronounced high frequency response but then alot of Zildjian cymbals in my prior life have entered my little head over the years as a drummer before going over to piano in my 2nd life.....

 

As far as the built-in speakers-the small built-in speakers cannot (IMO) reproduce the true acoustic nature of a grand piano-but put any of these newer Privias through a good sound system-woo-hoo!  And when using my PX560 internal sound system/speakers to play back mixes from my decks or other midi instruments-don't ask me why-sounds better overall than just playing the piano unaccompanied-the small speakers must be designed as a compromise (I guess) to be able to reproduce all the Casio tones and mixes-without necessarily favoring just the acoustic pianos-the most demanding tones of all. Done, back to the mothership.

                                                                                                                                                                                 

[Mike Martin]

On 7/2/2020 at 2:42 PM, Mike Martin said:

@Gr3yWolf

Here is the music file used to make the second audio example. This can play back on your own PX-S3000 to confirm. It should sound identical to the example #2 above. 

1. Download the file
2. Put in on a USB drive in a folder labeled MUSICDAT
3. Put the USB Drive into the PX-S3000
4. Press and hold FUNCTION on the PX-S3000
5. Scroll Left < three times and you'll find the MEDIA menu, Press ENTER
6. Scroll and select LOAD, Press ENTER
7. Choose RECORD SONG and Press ENTER
8. Select the File "PNO_2" and press ENTER
9. Choose the song location you want (this will overwrite any existing user song), then press ENTER. It may ask you to REPLACE.
10. From Song Mode on the PX-S3000 choose the location where you loaded the song and press PLAY.

 

 

PNO_2.MRF 2.52 kB · 2 downloads

 

@Gr3yWolf
Please play back this file. 

 

11 hours ago, Gr3yWolf said:

the actual demo song on the PX-S3000 sounding better than when actually playing

 

The demo files are MIDI data, they are not audio.  They are exactly the sound of your instrument, just played by someone else - just like my example above.

 

[Mike Martin]

@Gr3yWolf any luck playing the above file? 

 

On 7/2/2020 at 12:33 PM, Gr3yWolf said:

Sennheiser HD 555 & HD 650, and also some IEMs: Blon BL-03

 

The PX-S3000 is expecting 32Ω.

 

The Sennheiser HD-650 headphones have an impedance of 300Ω which is very high. This could be part of your issue. Your HD-555 are at 50Ω, these should sound noticeably better/louder. Your Blon BL-03 are 32Ω.  

 

I am using AT-K371 headphones most of the time lately which are 32Ω but I have also used Sony MDR-7506, Sennheiser HD 280 and Shure SRH440 headphones all without issue. Most of those are under at or under 50Ω.