Gain output PX-S 3000 vs PX-560M

[shep]

Hi All , I own a 3000 and a 560M and was concerned about the gain from the 3000. I set both keyboards up the same way , i.e. touch sensitivity off, keyboard volume maximum and set the amplifier to a constant volume. I played middle C and for the 3000 the decibel reading was 78.7 and for the 560M the reading was 81.3 I have read the posts concerning the voltage output at the line out's but my data shows there is a greater gain from the 560M than the 3000.

The reason I did this was because through my Bose Compact L1 I was getting clipping from the 3000 at high volumes. I haven't tried the 560M under similar conditions yet but I would guess that I will have more volume and less clipping. Any thoughts appreciated......shep

[Jokeyman123]

Studying specs for the Bose system, I see RCA stereo line inputs and a 1/8" stereo input, which must be for other audio devices such as cd players, smartphones or other devices that are matched. I'm guessing you are using the RCA stereo inputs of the Bose? I typically do not drive inputs into mixers, recorders or anything with keyboard volumes at max. If impedances are fairly closely matched, the gain should be provided by the sound system which generally will have better "headroom' driven to its highest gain setting. I have had to keep my Privias volume a little past halfway to prevent overdriving mixers and recorders, making up for lost volume with mixer trim and volume controls instead of pushing the Privias' output stages.  Not sure why this is so, may be the result of finding the limits of the internal output preamps in the Privias output stages when completely opened up. These seem a little more sensitive to causing clipping than some of my other keyboards and sound machines. Then again, the huge range of frequency response in the Privias may also be responsible. Not an engineer, so I'm not sure. Could be that the Privia internal samples are not as compressed as other equipment, tone modules, keyboards and this would cause clipping as well. I get the impression that amplifying the Privias is more like trying to reproduce the sound of a high quality recording and may require the same amount of care through a typical sound system. Our church installed one these Bose systems last year, and it sounds pretty amazing including through a new Yamaha digital grand piano and multiple mics in a rather large "non-acoustically designed" church.

[shep]

Thanks for your reply, however, I was not overdriving the Bose, only set at half gain , likewise with the 3000. I used a separate amp to conduct my tests and although the volume of both keyboards was set at maximum the volume of the amp was low. My point is that there is a difference in the line output of these two keyboards.

[Jokeyman123]

Apparently yes.What you said.

[Brad Saucier]

First, the volume knob on your keyboard should be at 12 o'clock position.  Second, adjust your amp gain to the desired level.  The keyboard volume knob should never be run at maximum when using an external amp.  

[Jokeyman123]

Deja vu all over again. Thanks Brad for affirming my (limited) trainwreck of knowledge.

[shep]

All points taken. The reason for my post is to see if anyone else has noticed a difference in the line out gain of each keyboard. I certainly have . The PX 560M is much louder for the same settings on each keyboard and amplifier. If I ran the 3000 on 12 o'clock I would not be heard even by cranking the Bose up full.....shep

[Brad Saucier]

Your PX-560 has gain settings in the master EQ and master compressor.  If these have been changed from default, that could make a difference.  Reset defaults by pressing the plus and minus buttons at the same time for each setting.  

[kybdsammer]

I have both the PX-S3000 and PX-560 and noticed the exact same thing as shep.  The line output on the PX-3000 is definitely lower than the PX-560.  I posted a question a while back about something related to this regarding the bass sounds being much quieter on the PX-S3000.  The default bass volume on the PX-560 is much louder and more vibrant when set at the same knob volume level (compare the ride bass on the two instruments and you'll see what I mean).  I never received any responses to my post.

 

On 6/18/2019 at 12:55 PM, kybdsammer said:

When comparing some of the default bass sounds between the PX-S3000 and PX-560, I noticed the volume seems much lower on the PX-S3000. Is there any way to globally increase the default volume? The sound level seems to be already at max 127. The only way I could boost the level is to tweak the DSP settings and save as a registration, but then I can't use it as a lower split sound.

[shep]

Thanks kybdsammer, I'm glad someone else has noticed the difference in volume. I have played a multitude of keyboards , types and brands and have noticed quite often that "professional" keyboards have a greater line out volume than home keyboards. This may be the case with the 3000 and 560? I also agree about the bass volume....shep

[kybdsammer]

As a side note, I've used both the PX-560 and PX-S3000 at my church several times and consider both to be "professional" no matter what they are officially called.  Lately I've used the PX-S3000 more because of its size and excellent sounds that work extremely well with my worship band.  I normally use piano and string sounds, but I used one of the cool distortion guitars as lead for a song and shocked the congregation.  We don't currently have an electric guitarist.  I am certainly no guitarist but tried to think how a real electric guitar is played and went for it even though it was out of my comfort zone.  I received many compliments about the realism of the sound and playability.  As I've said in other posts, both are great keyboards and compliment each other with their different strengths.

[Donkeys]

FWIW I have a PX-S3000 and a Nord C2 organ.  Sometime we play with a bigger sound system where each goes to DI.  The soundmen have been telling me its output is a little low. In smaller clubs, I send both into one DI out of necessity.  The 3000's output is far lower than the C2 or any other keyboard.  I have the 3000 volume all the way up and the C2 on half.  

[shep]

I wonder if this "problem" can be addressed by Casio? I find I have to use my 560M for "loud" gigs as the line out volume for the 3000 is toooo low.

[Jokeyman123]

This means the hardware gain stages are not putting out a hot enough signal. This might be due to the design being more for consumer rather than pro studio recording? I don't think this can be remedied with a firmware or software approach. Too bad, this would be pretty important in my work. At least you can't overdrive your amp or PA or mixing board. I'd rather the signal be too hot which can be trimmed down. The other way....not so easy. Putting an extra pre-amp after the line out signal is never a good idea, but might be the only way to get the output signal hotter to your board.  Would have to be careful to match the Casio line-out impedance to the pre-amp in. And will do nothing if in and out impedances are not matched properly. 

[kybdsammer]

One of the ways I get around the low volume issue is to modify the sound DSP settings and keyboard touch sensitivity on the tones that I often use so the level is stronger and then save as registration. I can then quickly recall them when performing. I did this to several of my most used sounds, and it significantly boosts the output level so it is more on par with the PX-560 and other instrument output levels. I know this is extra work and not ideal but for me, with these tweaks, I have no issue with output levels to our sound system and the quality of the sounds is really outstanding. I am very pleased with how I can customize a tone to my liking and save to a registration.  It would be nice to be able to save edits to a user tone, but that is on my wish list. 😀

[shep]

Thanks kybdsammer I will try your "fix"....shep