Hissing/Background noise when playing back audio from USB stick

[Eli26]

I posted previously about the fact that the soundfiles when I record onto a USB drive with my Grand Hybrid gp400 are extremely low volume when played on a computer.  SO much so that it required boosting by 20 decibels or more  to make the files usable. This question may be related, but it is distinct:  when I record  the GP400 direct to the USB stick, and play back the recording on the digital piano, the background is EXTEMELY noisy, really unacceptably so.  By noisy I mean whooshing and hissing sounds and something like white noise (and this is NOT the pedal or damper ---- even when no pedals are being pressed and no piano sound is being generated, the background is horribly noisy to the point that I can't listen to music played back, unless it is loud).  What's really odd is that I do NOT get that same messy noise when I am playing the piano through headphones.  I only hear it when playing back recordings.   For the record, I am using good quality headphones -- -SONY 7506, philiips SH9500, and grado 125s.

Also, when I bring the files into Audacity to boost he volume, (needs about a 20 dB boost), the hissing and whooshing is gone.  SO it seems like the problem is with the internal processing of playback from the USB stick.  Is this something that can be fixed under warranty?  Or a known issue?  I really love this piano, but the degree of noise in the headphone line when playing from a USB stick (to monitor my progress) is really unacceptable.

 

Again, the actual files play fine on my computer once I boost hem, so the noise is NOT present in the files.  So I didn't attach any files, because they are no very revealing.

 

[Brad Saucier]

Is this happening with recordings made on the piano and immediately played back?  Or is this only happening with files copied to the flash drive from other sources?

[Eli26]

4 hours ago, Brad Saucier said:

Is this happening with recordings made on the piano and immediately played back? 

YES

Or is this only happening with files copied to the flash drive from other sources?

I haven't tried playing anything form the flash drive OTHER than recordings made on the piano.  So again, what I'm seeing/hearing is:

Extremely noisy playback (I haven' tried it yet with speakers, actually, but on headphones --- it's really unnerving).  The noise is during silent portions or quiet portions (ie meaning no piano playing) , probably drowned out when playing loudly, except that it obviously is there, now that I am hearing it.

And then, ironically, when I transfer the file to a computer, the noise is gone, but the file's volume needs a HUGE boost to be audible. (Which I know you addressed in a separate question, although I frankly still don't understand the answer fully). 

[Brad Saucier]

Sorry about your troubles Eli.  Can you upload one of the WAV files generated by the piano, not boosted or anything, just as it is?  And then also capture the noisy playback by the piano, with a video perhaps? We'll see if we can spot any issues with it from there.   I'm trying to think of any reasons they would play back noisy on the piano, but not on the computer.  

[Jokeyman123]

Have you tried another flash drive to record to? And if so, same problem?

[Brad Saucier]

9 minutes ago, Jokeyman123 said:

Have you tried another flash drive to record to? And if so, same problem?

 

Yes.  Try this as well.

[Jokeyman123]

Brad and Eli, there are bad (counterfeit) flash drives that could do all kinds of weird stuff, that would be my first guess. I've had a few-one would crash my PX350, not kidding.

[Eli26]

Brad, I will try some of this out tomorrow. 

A couple of points:

(1) I will look for another flashdrive and try it.  The one I was trying has otherwise been flawless and is in fact a store branded one "Microcenter" so it certainly isn't a counterfeit.

(2) I've posted a wav file.  Here's what I can tell you about this.  I listened to it with several different headphones, grado 125s and phillips SH9500.  On the recording I purposely paused after the first few notes, and did that repeatedly.  I heard hissing and noise (and there was no pedal being used for the first part).  I also DEFINITELY heard what sounded like a weird cackly electronic echo.  This isn't hyperanalyzing a resonance or something like that.  This is a sound which is frankly just WRONG.  It even sounds at a couple of points (and I repeated this with some other tracks too) like the kind of high pitched squealing (with little pauses) that I used to hear when my dial up on AOL was working.  I have NOT yet checked this on the speakers, only used the headphone ports.  The recording was NOT utilizing any scenes.

(3) As for video --- I have to first check whether the issue is only through the headphone ports.  Obviously if it is only through headphone ports it's harder for me to capture evidence of it..... and even if it is through the speakers, it may be indistinguishable from background noise in the house....

 

I do appreciate your attention to this....  I can't imagine that this is normal, I suspect that something in the circuitry is faulty.  

TAKE26.WAV

Edited December 15, 2019 by Eli26
added a file

[Jokeyman123]

• I've got pretty good hearing-I can tell you the recording was barely audible until I normalized the wav with Audacity, and still had to boost the volume more than that with Audacity to hear this clearly. Now on this recording-I monitored with good AKG monitor cans-I heard nothing wrong-no hissing, no extraneous noises, the piano sounded as I've heard it on my Privias. Quiet spots-were dead silent on my playback equipment. No spurious leaked harmonics-Audacity shows the precise waveform and it looks pretty clean.  so I guess Brad will have to weigh in. But the recording level is abysmally low out of your wav file, so something is not right there. I am not familiar with the Casio Grand keyboard-is there a setting for "balance" anywhere in the menu? I know with the PX560 I can control the audio output/recording level separately from what I hear live when I play and also the input levels if I am recording with the audio input (I think I recall that right).

[Joe Muscara]

I just want to make sure I'm understanding. I've listened to the WAV file on my computer and it sounded perfectly fine. If I read your post correctly, that's to be expected. You're only hearing the noise when you playback the WAV files through your Grand Hybrid. Correct?

 

I'd love to see other Grand Hybrid owners weigh in on this. Unfortunately I am not one, nor is there a dealer in my city for me to go test this.

[Brad Saucier]

For capturing the headphone output, you could use a cable to connect the headphone out to an audio interface on a computer and record it that way, then upload the sample here.  

[Eli26]

First, I have more samples now.  As Jokeyman pointed out above, yes the recording is abysmally low. I can't imagine it was supposed to be that way.  I posted about this on these forums in other thread, but I'll comment again on thi shear.  My father was an importwer of the highest end audiophile equipment in Toronto in the 19709s.  He was friends with the late great Oscar Peterson and provided him with his microphones.... and set up the stereo in Oscar's house. He knows audio --- the speakers in my Dad's living room are the identical IMF monitors that were used in Decca's engineering studios to monitor their classical recordings (except for the faux wood formica they put on a few pair for people like my dad who wanted them in his living room).  When he listened to the file I sent him he immediately sent back that the recording level was clearly way off, waay too low, and there is no way that it needed to be that low to produce good dynamic range.

 

IN any case, I am attaching several files. First, the noises are  there in silent spots.  File 47 should be completely clean, but it isn't. When boosted to sound the way it sounds on my headphones (AND ON MY SPEAKERS through the instrument --- in other words, yes, I just discovered that it does produce the same artifacts through the speakers, but they are a bit harder to pick up on), you can hear that their is hiss and noise and pops.  I called that file take47realistic gain, nbecause the gain was manipulatred so that what I heard on my computer speakers (with the volume way up) was very similar to what I am hearing through the piano.  The pops are inconsistent on various files, perhaps indicating an internal electrical issue.  On the recorded bit, you can hear some noise at the beginning.  I should point out that I am NOT confusing damper noise with hiss.  To me the recording sounds like an old LP, with a generalized background hiss through much of it.

 

It seems to me as a layman (I don't have my dad's expertise on this) that the files have two issues (1) they are ridiculously low volume (2) when boosted to appropriate volume, they have artifacts such as hissing, popping, etc.  NOt all of these are heard on the two files I uploaded, but I've been hearing it all day.  To clarify, until today,  was ONLY listening to recordings via headphones.  I can now confirm that when listened through the piano speakers, the same artifacts exist.  They are consistent for any given sound file, but they seem to appear inconsistently.  It seems that the GP400 takes that very low level file and boosts it tremendously before playback (by about 20 decibels!), which may (or may not?) indicate that the file is 'supposed' to be about 20 db too low.  But then again, the fact that the file is in fact boosted internally also implies that there is no reason for it to be so unacceptably low to begin with... can't have it both ways --- if the system is designed to boost the file and presumably can do so without clipping the sound, then I can't imagine why the sound level was so low to begin with.

 

I WOULD like to know whether this is an issue on just mine (or a batch of similar GPs), whether it was true on all the models, etc.... It seems that this hampers my ability to make a clean recording.... AGain,. loving the piano but want o figure this out.....

TAKE47.WAV TAKE47realistic gain.wav TAKE46.WAV

TAKE46withgain.wav

[Brad Saucier]

I guess the noise issue isn't coming through in the audio samples.  I'm trying really hard to hear any unusual noise or any noise at all.  If I put on some closed back headphones and crank up the volume to max, I can hear some very low level pink or brown noise, but it's hardly anything noticable at normal listening level, and not noticable at all on speakers.  Also, your audio samples without any boost sound fine to me and they don't sound too low for listening.  You're playing a soft passage and it comes through my headphones and speakers nicely.  I didn't have to crank up my volume from where it normally sits.  I had the opposite issue.   I had to turn down your boosted "realistic gain" samples, both in headphones and on my speakers.  I'm not sure what else to suggest.  Have you checked the balance menu on your piano?  You can change upper 1 balance.  That may give you some more volume into the recording, although it sounds fine to me as I said.   If you were belting out a really intense piece of music with lots of fast passages, the recording would get louder, appropriately.  Have you tested it with some loud material?  

[Eli26]

Sorry for the long delay.  Life took over.

 

This is really odd.  Perhaps I uploaded the wrong samples, which is of course my fault.  Perhaps the issue is that I hear the noise through the casio piano only, ie through that headphone output on the casio.  I ill try to define the problems better, with some new uploads.  Because this is happening again, with new recordings as well.  And an additional issue --- on some recordings, the recording seems to abruptly skip.  I noticed that on a recent one, it skipped at 64 seconds and again at 128 seconds ( I think the fat that that is an exponential of two is coincidental, but the fact that the two times that the recording skipped   are spaced evenly can't be coincidence.  To keep things clean, I will upload with separate posts so that my descriptions can be more accurate.  Because there are multiple audio issues.  SO if I make a few posts here, please look at each one, as that is the easiest way for me to do things organized.

 

Also, I am confused by the reference to the balance menu on my piano.  I have a GP400.  I am unaware of a balance menu, but of course if there is one please let me know where it is located in the menu system. I have never seen that before.

 

 

[Eli26]

Here is an unboosted file.  Along with a screen shot from Audacity.  The sound levels are very low. Sure, It sounds OK when my computer volume is max and the speakers (small computer speakers) are near max.  But that's  a huge boost over the normal computer volume (notification beeps are like alarms at that level!)

TAKE89.WAV

[Eli26]

(2)  Note that on this file there is a sound cut off at 64 and 128 seconds.  Could that be related to the fact that that';s about one thirds and two thirds through?  I have no idea.  In any case, what explains why many (not all) of the recordings I make have little interruptions and skips?)

[A quick note: this file was named TAKE 88 by the automatic file system in the piano.  I had uploaded it into audacity and boosted the volume and saved in a way that over-wrote the original TAKE88.  Then when I realized that it would be useful to share this file, I realized that I had overwritten the original on the memory stick.  However, i still had the original file open in Audacity, so I exported it and thus (presumably recreated the original file) .  So technically this file was saved by Audacity but its audio is the exact same as the original file. But my point is that this file was created with SKIPS in it by the internal audio recorder on the piano.)  

TAKE88.WAV

[Eli26]

(3) as far as I can recall,  all the background hissing which is on the recordings is heard ONLY when I play through the GP-400.  I don't hear it on the actual files in audacity.  So there seems to be a problem within the GP400.  It's definitely NOT imagined, but I don't know how to capture it (recording it via cellphone or something like that has too much ambient noise to discern what I'm describing.  But wow, is it ever there.)  Since it is present in headphone listening and speaker listening through the GP400 it must be something at a level which is common to both (so it's not for example, a faulty speaker component)....

[Brad Saucier]

22 minutes ago, Eli26 said:

  I am unaware of a balance menu, but of course if there is one please let me know where it is located in the menu system. I have never seen that before

 

The manual can be more detailed than I can here  Check out the section in the manual titled "to adjust the volume balance between two layered tones".  

[Eli26]

But I'm not using layered tones.  Does the section in question still apply?

[Brad Saucier]

4 minutes ago, Eli26 said:

as far as I can recall,  all the background hissing which is on the recordings is heard ONLY when I play through the GP-400

 

Is this with headphones?  If so, use a cable to connect the headphone output to your computer audio input and record that with Audacity.

[Eli26]

I know we've crossed messages, so for clarity, please note that I asked whether the part about layered tones applied if I'm not using layers (as far as I know).  As for the noise, I edited the original post (and I think that you responded to the original unedited post) to indicate that I believe that it it occurs via headphones and speakers.  (BTW I am not sure how to connect the piano to audio input on my laptop... I don;t even know i f there is an audioinput on my laptop!)  It's a Dell E7450 I believe.

[Eli26]

Also Brad, I'd like to add the following quote from Jokeyman123.  He also could barely hear the recording.  I am confused as to how you are hearing the recordings loud and clear... is there some setting that you have on your computer that we don;t on ours?  EVERYBODY I sent it to said that they could barely hear it. And my Dad may not be an expert on digital files and recordings, but he is an audiophile expert with extensive experience (in the 1970s) in the music industry (as well as son of a concert pianist) and his first reaction was to ask why I was sending a file which was virtually inaudible..  To be clear, I am not writing this with a tone of sarcasm -- -  I am appreciative of your expertise and helpfulness but genuinely puzzled by how what you are hearing is so different than what I am hearing....)

 

here's the quote from Jokeyman (I am not quoting him to say that he's more of an authority on technical issues with Casio, but simply to point out that the unboosted files were, as he said "barely audible" to most of us).  Lastly, yes, the hissing is only heard through the piano itself.  :

 

"I've got pretty good hearing-I can tell you the recording was barely audible until I normalized the wav with Audacity, and still had to boost the volume more than that with Audacity to hear this clearly. Now on this recording-I monitored with good AKG monitor cans-I heard nothing wrong-no hissing, no extraneous noises, the piano sounded as I've heard it on my Privias. Quiet spots-were dead silent on my playback equipment. No spurious leaked harmonics-Audacity shows the precise waveform and it looks pretty clean.  so I guess Brad will have to weigh in. But the recording level is abysmally low out of your wav file, so something is not right there. I am not familiar with the Casio Grand keyboard-is there a setting for "balance" anywhere in the menu? I know with the PX560 I can control the audio output/recording level separately from what I hear live when I play and also the input levels if I am recording with the audio input (I think I recall that right).

[Eli26]

So there's a lot of words, posts, and back-and forth above, but I want to summarize the issues and questions so that hopefully they can be resolved

(1) Is there a menu to boost balance even when I am not utilizing layered sounds?

(2) why are the wav files created by the gp-400 so low that they require substantial boosting to be above a whisper?  What can be done to fix this?  If not fixable a defective gp-400, or just am in convenience (having to use 3rd party software to boost levels)

(3) why does playback through the gp400 speakers and/or headphones have noisy hiss??

(4) why do some of the audio recording files made with the audio recording feature on the gp-400 have skips in them??

 

 

 

[Brad Saucier]

1) The balance menu is the only level control I see at the moment.  If I find another way I'll let you know.

 

2)All Casio digital pianos have wide dynamic range.  Grand Hybrids probably have the most dynamic range.  A very wide dynamic range allows natural  expression during a performance, from very soft passages to very loud.  Audio recorder input level is preset. The preset level is intended to prevent clipping when the loudest possible sound is generated during a performance.  Combine the effects of preserving dynamic range with an input level designed to prevent clipping and you get what seems to be a low recording.  This is normal.  

 

3) I don't know why this is happening.  

 

4) It could be an issue with the flash drive itself.  Casio recommends 32GB maximum for a flash drive.  I recommend using that flash drive only for the piano. 

[Eli26]

(1) Yes, but that level doesn't do anything unless I'm using layers (I think)

 

(2) I just don't get it.  Do other casio keyboards also produce recordings this low in volume?   when I play loudly, as some of the note sin that recording are loud, it is virtually inaudible.   It seems like  a tremendous over-compensation to  prevent clipping.....  I chose casio over the competition because I liked the action better. That said, all of the highend keyboards have similarly wide dynamic range.  The issue with inaudible recordings seems unique --- I cn't  imagine it needed to be quieted this much to prevent clipping.....

(3) With regards to the noisy hiss -- perhaps I will figure out how to record this.  I feel like if this is not a known issue, there may a warranty issue here.  But I'm not sure what's going on…...  

 

(4) I think it was a 64 GB drive. I'll switch to a smaller one and see if this keeps happening...