Recording audio from midi or just a midi is a mess regarding Effects settings

[Zex]

So I set all the delays, reverbs up as needed

I can here it, everything sounds ok

saving the registration, it's saved correctly

 

If I record a new midi file and forget to select the bank section before recording in most cases it ignores the current effects and sets some unknown... maybe default ones.

Ok that can be solved partially by pressing bank #... which is required and only then start recording. And it's better to record a new file not overwrite the existent one (it's even worse)

 

The main problem is... I use the same bank#1

during midi recording I can press bank #1 several times to reset to its original settings because while recording I switch tones using the screen But! not the effects

And everything sounds perfects while recording no effects are affected by pressing bank#1

 

But after that I'm trying to record that midi to audio and the first part before pressing bank#1 the 2nd time is fine all effects are correct but once I press bank#1 again it's gone

all effects are set to some default or some settings and that is %%% annoying.

In order to record w/o issues (or at least to fix it) I have to stay and listen during recording (it could be 30 or more minutes)

and be ready to press the bank#1 button to activate the effects if missed

 

Might be it's fixed in the latest update but I don't want' to loose AutoSleep 

 

 

[Tsquare]

Please excuse my reply if I don't fully understand.  However, it sounds like you need to use the mixer after recording instead of pushing saved bank registrations.  In the mixer you can change the tone, reverb, delay, etc. on each recorded midi track.  You can save these mixer changes to the midi file by hitting the "store" button and the "midi" button simultaneously.  You can change tones, rhythm and more during a midi recording by pressing saved registrations.  However, the BPM for each saved registration must be the same or your midi recording will fluctuate in BPM.

[Zex]

37 minutes ago, Tsquare said:

Please excuse my reply if I don't fully understand.  However, it sounds like you need to use the mixer after recording instead of pushing saved bank registrations.  In the mixer you can change the tone, reverb, delay, etc. on each recorded midi track.  You can save these mixer changes to the midi file by hitting the "store" button and the "midi" button simultaneously.  You can change tones, rhythm and more during a midi recording by pressing saved registrations.  However, the BPM for each saved registration must be the same or your midi recording will fluctuate in BPM.

No you didn't understand

 

I recorded midi, used the same bank with effect settings, during midi recording it played fine no issues when pressing the same Bank#1 button several times within several minutes...

e.g. click bank#1  recording midi and playing ...effects are fine ...still recording midi and playing... click bank#1  no issues all effects are fine

 

But then I record WAV from that recorded midi the 2nd and others (recorded)  clicks on the Bank#1 button removes all effects and resets it to the default ones

 

e.g.

start wav recording / midi started and playing ...effects are fine ...still recording  but once the bank#1 clicked (not manually from the midi data) right after that all effects are reset to the original...

Edited August 17, 2021 by Zex

[Brad Saucier]

The audio recorder is not related to this issue.  This is a MIDI recorder usage issue. Let's start with this; are you recording using the system track or a solo track?  Only the system track is capable of recording registration changes.  

[Jokeyman123]

Need some clarity-when you refer to a bank-are you describing a "tone" bank-such as pianos, strings, hex layers etc. or are you describing the song recorder "bank" where you select either a multi-track song you've recorded, or a new one you are about to record?

 

Once you have a complete song recorder (not audio recorder) assembled and recorded, the "audio recorder" will record it exactly as it is played back through the PX560, I think you understand that. I have recored a good 20 or so songs with the "song recorder" which can also bedescribed as the "midi recorder"-the only difference (again sorry if you know this already, but the distinction is important-I'll explain) is the way you save your song-you can save it as a standard midi file (smf/.mid) in the PX560 or using the Casio proprietary format-a "ZMF". The difference-I don't think this is what is happening-an existing pre-recorded midi file if played from within the PX560-will always re-set the 560 to whatever was in that midi file's "header"-DSP, pan, tones, volume of each track. Sorry if you know all this already but here is why this is important-

 

When you record a brand new multitrack-whether it gets saved as a .mid or casio .zmf-once you record even a single track-say a drum or piano track-ifyou save this recording in the "system" track-it now has recorded whatever settings were in the other tracks, even if there is nothing in those tracks-the 'defaults". When you record other non-system tracks-your DSP and any other mixer settings will not be saved-these will go back to what was originally there before you recorded anything-or whatever was recorded in the system track-if you recorded anything in that track. I know this is complicated-it is one of the more unique ways that Casio recorders work for midi-more like an auto-arranger design than a workstation design for recording.

 

Now if you record your first track-and any others-but these are not in the system track-I think this might be what is happening-the system track is not "saving" whatever DSP, tone, pan, volumes you have set with the mixer for any of the other tracks. And your tempo will also not be saved-unless you record a "dummy" blank system track with your tempo preset, then it saves the tempo for all the tracks, and regardless of how you change the tempo-when you start playing your song again-it will go back to that saved tempo in the system track.

 

And finally the biggest sticking point. You cannot overdub the system track-you can only delete it and create an entirely new one. A big problem if you've recorded the system track already-because when you delete or record over it-it erases all the settings for ALL the other tracks too-DSP, volume etc-anything in the mixer settings. Not the musical notes-just the other information-the system track is recording ALL your mixer settings in one place-think of it as the "master' track. Technically-one way to save your settings for everything-leave the system track blank-don't record anything in it-use your other tracks-set the mixer to whatever settings you want for all your other tracks-insert levels, pan, volume etc.-THEN....select the system track to record-including your tempo....and record a blank "dummy' track. Now all your settings will be saved there-for your entire recording-for all the other tracks. The only problem will be your tempo-only the system track will store the tempo-if you don't do that, your other tracks will "drift" will not hold their tempo. 

 

What T-Square has described is very important to understand-because that keypress combination-will instantly "store" all your changes to the system track-this is documented-but not in the PX560 manual-I forgot where I found this-doing this "rewrites" all the "header" information for your song, for all your tracks. But if you record something on the system track after you do this-it will erase whatever changes you made in the mixer-it will revert back to the 'default" values-as if you are starting a new song all over again. So keep that system track in mind when creating a song. The good thing is that-once you set all the settings for the mixer-you can 're-record" the system track-and it will again, store those changes in it. This is what the keypress combination is doing-sort a shortcut to having to re-record a "dummy" blank system track. A little different than most workstations-I have at least one other non-Casio workstation that does this-it records tempo changes, pan, volume in a "master' or system track.  But many workstations do this automatically without having to save or record a separate system track each time you make changes.

 

One more detail-as you record a "dummy" system track-whatever changes you make during recording-will be recorded-but to the system track-not to the individual tracks. If I pan for example, track 4, 5 and 6 during my recording-the system track records those realtime changes. This is also important to understand-because each individual track, like the system track-does not allow for "overdubbing" so you cannot record these realtime changes in individual tracks-it is being "picked up" by the system track-but again, you have to select the system track as your recording track before you do this-the system track is the master track for the mixer and for switching tones as well, but you can only do it in one pass-no overdubbing on the system track either. 

 

Sorry for the long explanation-hopefully this will solve your problem-the PX560 is a bit complex, but then it is a powerful music machine.

[Jokeyman123]

Sorry Brad-I got started on this one already!!! Woke me up this AM, somebody had to!

[Zex]

I use system track and the same exact registration for recording.

Also, yes it's not a wave recorder issue, it's a midi recorder issue (internal memory, own casio format, system track).

No issues while playing and recording WAV simultaneously in realtime, only in recording a midi (own casio format) and "converting" it to wav later

 

It does not matter which instrument or how many of them... you can use any single piano for reproducing

 

Also another issue here is that the delay effects start working only after the 1st note recorded (if you started recording with the first note pressed), the very first note cracks every time, most likely because the effects settings are applied during the play of the 1st note it does not have enough time to be properly activated before the first note.

(but it has a work around - don't start recording with the note you need later... just press something and wait for some time)

 

Steps to reproduce the mane issue

1. create a piano registration with long echo delays so you can clearly hear the echo trails (3-5 long repeats should be fine). Save the registration to, for example, Bank#1 Registration#1 [#11]

2. Start a new "system" midi recording. Confirm that you can hear the trails while playing.

3. play any notes, e.g. Do,Re,Mi and press [#11].  Confirm the echo trails, should be fine

4. play other several notes, e.g. Fa, Sol, La and press [#11] continue playing

5. repeat the prev. step if you want just remember the notes you played and when you pressed [#11]

6. stop recording and press Midi Play button in order to replay your just recorded midi.

 

The very first part of the midi should be playing fine, so Do, Re, Mi echoed 3-5 times as required

Wait for the first [#11]  hit  and listen to Fa, Sol, La, as a result you won't hear the repeats as the previous ones

same applies to all notes after next [#11] hits

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Zex

[Brad Saucier]

I will guess that pressing the registration button is resetting the effects each time.  That is to be expected.  

[Zex]

4 hours ago, Brad Saucier said:

I will guess that pressing the registration button is resetting the effects each time.  That is to be expected.  

Yes it resets the effects each time but not to the registration effects but to the default ones. 

And that is not correct and is not an expected behaviour because while playing live it does not reset the effects to the default settings, only midi records contain that error.

A midi record should save every change of the registration (no matter the same or a different one) including its assigned effects. But atm it saves the Pressing button event but not the corresponding effects (I believe it saves null values instead) so while playing midi they are replaced with default settings

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Zex

[casio_style]

I don't have a PX-560M, but I think it has the same mixer as on all Casio synthesizers: a main mixer and a midi mixer.
And the registration banks do not save the settings for the midi mixer, when you click on the registration bank, this mixer will always have the default settings. The settings of this mixer can only be affected by the playing midi file itself.

[Jokeyman123]

If I understand this correctly-what you are saying is that,

 

1) you can save DSP settings in a midi recording-the mixer settings I've described and 

2) you can save dsp and other settings in a registration but

3) when you select a registration for use in a midi recording, it does not bring those settings into the song recorder song? 

 

This is unfortunately one of the more confusing parts of the PX560-the appendix describes all the settings that are saved in a registration-and includes all the DSP settings in each that you've saved, along with many other settings I won't get into in this post. But it is not clear-if this is what you need to do-that you can bring in a complete saved registration into the song recorder, and it will bring those registration settings into the mixer for recording. I've been able to bring particular tone combinations saved in a registration into the song recorder, but not the DSP settings. I noticed this when I was recording my cover of Telstar-when I tried to bring in my registration to record tracks in the song recorder, it did not bring the effects in. I had leslie rotary setups with my external pedal with layered organs that played as expected from the main menu, bu when I btrought that registration ino song recorder mode, it was not completely successful in bringing in my registration settings. Sorry if I misunderstand what you want to do.

[Jokeyman123]

Part of the basis for this design already built into the PX may be- it uses an entirely different set of 16 midi channels for the song recorder (port "C") as it does for the accompaniment midi channels-(port "B") which are probably tied into the registration settings. Because these channels are separate groups of midi channels-one set will not respond to settings from another set. This may have something to do with this division of, and lack of saving, DSP settings from registrations to the song recorder. I know of no way to work around this design, and like many multi-channel keyboards with built-in sequencers or recorders-bringing in a particular effect stored in a tone (or program in other keyboards) will not always successfully retain that effect when you bring it into the keyboard's recorder, whether these use a 'registration" design or not.  I'm guessing it might be possible with certain keyboards, but every one I've ever worked with had a bit of stumbling block with DSPs transferring exactly as programmed in the tone, to the built-in midi recorder. 

[Zex]

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:44 PM, Tsquare said:

Please excuse my reply if I don't fully understand.  However, it sounds like you need to use the mixer after recording instead of pushing saved bank registrations.  In the mixer you can change the tone, reverb, delay, etc. on each recorded midi track.  You can save these mixer changes to the midi file by hitting the "store" button and the "midi" button simultaneously.  You can change tones, rhythm and more during a midi recording by pressing saved registrations.  However, the BPM for each saved registration must be the same or your midi recording will fluctuate in BPM.

 

The mixer does not help with DSP effects, I use the system track (just in case)

 

>> during a midi recording by pressing saved registrations

 

Yes, that's how I try to workaround the issue while recording to wav, but this requires my presence and preparation in order to remember all the parts where I changed the registrations which takes a lot of time  (I dont memorize those moments while playing) I'm composing live and the midi record is usually 999 measures.

So after midi recording I need to rehearse it, get all the breakpoints and then wait and be ready during wav recording to hit the registration button to get DSP effects back into recording which is a mess and will take an hour of my time minimum.

 

 

9 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

If I understand this correctly-what you are saying is that,

 

1) you can save DSP settings in a midi recording-the mixer settings I've described and 

2) you can save dsp and other settings in a registration but

3) when you select a registration for use in a midi recording, it does not bring those settings into the song recorder song? 

 

This is unfortunately one of the more confusing parts of the PX560-the appendix describes all the settings that are saved in a registration-and i....

correct all the settings (including DSP) are brought in to the system midi record initially, but any new registration change does not bring new assigned DSPs, it just resets to the defaults instead. Which is I consider to be a major error/bug, because if it can save DSP settings in the first place why can't it save the new ones

And this problem just ruins all my such recordings.

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Zex

[Brad Saucier]

Perhaps it would be helpful to attach a video of what you're trying to accomplish?  It is difficult to understand what you are trying create musically.  Maybe someone can offer an alternative way to accomplish what you are looking for.

[Zex]

5 hours ago, Brad Saucier said:

Perhaps it would be helpful to attach a video of what you're trying to accomplish?  It is difficult to understand what you are trying create musically.  Maybe someone can offer an alternative way to accomplish what you are looking for.

I want to be able to record a midi file that saves DSP effects assigned to every registration button so that I can switch between different DSP effects while recording and later I could record that midi to a .wav w/o any additional steps. Or at least it should not reset DSP effects at all when a reg.button is pressed.

At this moment it only records the current selected DSP effects, once I press any registration button during midi recording it resets all DSP effects to the default ones and not to the assigned to that button and that affects midi records only, it applies effects correctly while you just playing

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Zex

[Brad Saucier]

I think I understand what you're doing now.

 

DSP effects are not stored in registrations. That is stored with tones.  You will need to edit a tone.  In the tone edit menu you'll see effects editing.  Here you can change DSP effect settings and system effects send levels. Save the changes as a user tone.  You can use several user tones in succession to achieve what you want.  System effects parameters (reverb, chorus, delay) will store in registrations. 

 

To recap, store several user tones with various DSP effects and system effects send levels you want to use.  Edit the system effects to your taste, and store the user tone and system effects together as a registration.  Use those registrations in the MIDI recorder and everything should be work well.

[Zex]

14 hours ago, Brad Saucier said:

I think I understand what you're doing now.

 

DSP effects are not stored in registrations. That is stored with tones.  You will need to edit a tone.  In the tone edit menu you'll see effects editing.  Here you can change DSP effect settings and system effects send levels. Save the changes as a user tone.  You can use several user tones in succession to achieve what you want.  System effects parameters (reverb, chorus, delay) will store in registrations. 

 

To recap, store several user tones with various DSP effects and system effects send levels you want to use.  Edit the system effects to your taste, and store the user tone and system effects together as a registration.  Use those registrations in the MIDI recorder and everything should be work well.

 I'm talking about system Effects section on the main screen (not about DSP section in the tones they are already set up correctly and saved as a User Tone with required settings, also the system effects settings are saved to Reg#11)

 

I believe it's better to show on the video...

 

[Brad Saucier]

Thank you for the video.  I'm still not sure what you are are trying to accomplish musically, so I can't offer any suggestions for the digital piano itself. Perhaps someone else will have ideas.  It seems like a complex arrangement of effects, something I would enlist the help of a DAW to do, rather than entirely within the digital piano.  A DAW would handle everything very well.  If your song were more basic, the MIDI recorder would be well suited for it.  

[AndrewL]

If I understand correctly, it's not resetting "all DSP effects to the default one", just re-starting the effects, which causes the in-progress ones to stop. You can notice that even when playing, pressing the registration also affects the effect. It is indeed strange or an issue that on playback it doesn't behave exactly the same though.

The "solution" would be then that the keyboard compares the whole current DSP settings with the ones from the registration, and if they match, not do anything DSP related, right?

[Zex]

16 hours ago, Brad Saucier said:

Thank you for the video.  I'm still not sure what you are are trying to accomplish musically, so I can't offer any suggestions for the digital piano itself. Perhaps someone else will have ideas.  It seems like a complex arrangement of effects, something I would enlist the help of a DAW to do, rather than entirely within the digital piano.  A DAW would handle everything very well.  If your song were more basic, the MIDI recorder would be well suited for it.  

No problem,

As I've told several times already , I want to switch between registrations during midi recording w/o loosing any effects atm it's impossible. It's that simple.

I have a piano registration#1 with long delays and an orchestra registration with same delays and effects. I want to switch between them, but once I switched all affects are gone in the midi file.

 

Any press of any reg button during recording just removes all predefined effects especially long delays (which is the most obvious)

And it's not complex it's just reverb and delay(echo) that's it.  There's no issues while playing so that effects are not complex (only a midi file does not record that information)

 

It's just a bug that requires a fix, there's no solution to this unfortunately

The midi files just don't' store that information correctly (only their header is OK I believe) but all intermediate changes (re effect changes) are not saved correctly (nil values) or not saved at all.

 

and thank you for your help )

Edited August 25, 2021 by Zex

[Zex]

5 hours ago, AndrewL said:

If I understand correctly, it's not resetting "all DSP effects to the default one", just re-starting the effects, which causes the in-progress ones to stop. You can notice that even when playing, pressing the registration also affects the effect. It is indeed strange or an issue that on playback it doesn't behave exactly the same though.

The "solution" would be then that the keyboard compares the whole current DSP settings with the ones from the registration, and if they match, not do anything DSP related, right?

you're right, partially, every pressing of the reg button restarts all the effects and that's Ok,  every effect processor does it, a more complex one tries to minimize the cracks and other side effects while doing so, it tries to mix the old and new effects together w/o any gaps in the sound. Unfortunately this piano cant do it w/o gaps but the main issue here it does not start new assigned effects at all it just starts some default ones. The most obvious difference can be heard in the echos.

 

A midi file already contains all effects but only in the header and only for the very first part until a reg button is pressed, as I said in the prev. comment it does not save intermediate information about the changes in the settings, although the notes and rhythms are saved fine per every registration

[Jokeyman123]

As I posted, look at the routings for all 48 midi channels this board can handle-each group of 16 midi channels uses a different "port"-A, B and C. One port is used only for the midi recorder, one port is used for auto-arrangement parts and on port is used strictly as a "tone module" to play tones from an external midi source. This is the way the 560 is designed, to handle each group of midi channels completely separate from each other. I'm sure this is why saving DSP settings can be saved in 3 different ways-as if you are routing DSPs through 3 distinct sets of outputs

1) as part of a tone-either as a factory DSP with a tone, or an edited tone

2) as part of the settings for the auto-arrangements-and the registrations OR

3) as part of the 16 midi channels recognized only for use with external midi software or other sequencers

 

This is probably (I am guessing) because the 560 does not have the CPU power to process 3 distinct and  different sets of DSPs all at the same time-it can only process DSPs used from within saved registrations, OR as a tone module-OR with the midi recorder. For example, my Equinox (admittedly an old machine-has the processing power to record 32 channels-and can play a 16-part multi (layered sound/program) on top of that, not shabby for an old workstation! But the DSP engines are separated-but processed through one set of DSP inserts, busses and returns-you can use a different set of DSP's for the 32-track recorder than you do for the 16-layer multis but it shares the same engine-so you can have a different set of DSPs for the one and the other simultaneously-but with limitations in what you can do. DSPs take a tremendous amount of "firepower"-my Fusions have at least 3 Texas Instruments CPUs just to process the effects and 2 other IC's, and   more CPU's just for the sound generators, and these DSP IC's are very advanced CPUS, still available from Texas Instruments. A new Fusion mainboard costs almost half as much as the entire PX560, so there you go. I know, I had to buy one to restore an old Fusion! I've attached a pdf of that DSP diagram if you are curious, or you want your head to explode!

Fusion Main Functional Parts & Connections by pev69.pdf

[Zex]

15 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

 

 

This is probably (I am guessing) because the 560 does not have the CPU power to process 3 distinct and  different sets of DSPs all at the same time-it can only process DSPs used from within saved registrations

What I'm trying to say, it's just a simple bug of the file saving process during recording. Nothing to do with CPU power.

Imagine we have several difference registrations with its own Effects settings like

 

DelRev1 (for registration 1) DelRev2( for registration2), etc.

and Tones1 and Tones2...

 

As everybody here knows

Before playing we press Reg1 it loads up [DelRev1,Tones1] and  it overwrites the current (or default) selected tones and effects

if we press Reg2 it loads up [DelRev2,Tones2] above the reg1 and so on

 

so hand playing in a timeline looks like

Reg1->[DelRev1,Tones1] playing Reg2->[DelRev2,Tones2] playing Reg2->[DelRev2,Tones2] ...

 

While we start midi recording it writes [DelRev1,Tones1] into the header of the midi file but when we press Reg1/2 it writes only Tones info, by some reason it ignores the effects settings

 

so the timeline of the recorded file looks like this

 

header Reg1->[DelRev1,Tones1] playing  Reg2->[null,null,Tones2] playing  Reg2->[null,null,Tones2]....

 

and midi player logic replaces those null values with some default ones while playing

 

that's an issue

[casio_style]

Most likely there is no mistake here, changing the system DSP effects during the game is simply not foreseen from the very beginning; such a change will simply cause delays during playback.
You should, as already mentioned above, use the edited custom tones, and you can change them as much as you like during playback.

[Jokeyman123]

I'm sticking by what I've said, I'm done here.