"Tone Tyrant" tone editing software

[Just Alex]

There is a sound, which has looping "hold" parameter, which is made from a sample with pre-recorded "vibrato". Is it possible to disable looping for the "hold" area of a tone? File attached.

 

CT-X5000_Vertigo.TON

[mrmr9494]

On 10/11/2022 at 7:00 PM, Just Alex said:

There is a sound, which has looping "hold" parameter, which is made from a sample with pre-recorded "vibrato". Is it possible to disable looping for the "hold" area of a tone? File attached.

 

CT-X5000_Vertigo.TON 492 B · 1 download

 

Alex, afraid not. In that sound (it's based on 403 DSP MODULATED LEAD 3 / 452 VA SYNTH PAD right?) the "repetition" is part of the underlying sample so there's no way to edit it out in the TON file.

 

Unless, cutting the amplitude during the "hold" would give you what you need (as in the attachment)?

 

Vertigo_no_hold.TON

[Just Alex]

Wow thanks, that also sounds quite good.

I'm trying to replicate some cloche pop synth lines.

This particular one is a synth part of  (or for?)  Aqua - "Roses are red" - from 0:31

 

 

[Just Alex]

I have upgraded to MZ-X500, and while it has built-in editor like "Tone Tyrant", you can't select initial sample on which your new sound will be based. So maybe is it possible to extend this "tyrant" software to support .ZTN files from MZ-X as well? I'm ready to contribute and not afraid loading any files

[mrmr9494]

Alex, sure at least in theory it's possible. ZTN format is very similar to TON format (it certainly seems like one of them was based on the other!). That said, rewriting the program could be a bit of work and if all you need to change is the "Wavetable" parameter then there are probably quicker ways to get you that. Let me DM you some ideas.

 

In the meantime, could you possibly educate me on the ZTN format? It seems there are some ZTN files which are small (< 1kB) and others which are many megabytes in size. What's the difference between them, from your perspective as a user? Are ZTN files from Privia keyboards (PX-560 etc...) compatible with your MZ-X500?

[Jokeyman123]

MZ-X500 and PX6560 ZTN files are not cross-compatible, unless someone can decompile the codes used by each, and modify. I have tried MZ-X to my PX560-does not work out of the box.

[Brad Saucier]

ZTN files for MZX can contain new sample data.  Whenever they do, they are called expansion tones.  This is for expanding sample content in the MZX series.  

[Just Alex]

About 90% of sounds in MZ-X and CT-X are the same, so no wonder if file format also will be similar.

 

[mrmr9494]

So it turned out that re-building for MZ-X500 was not so difficult after all, so I went ahead and did that. The "MZ-X" build can be downloaded from here: https://github.com/michgz/tonetyrant/releases/tag/v2.2.2-MXr

 

A couple of things to note: MIDI is unlikely to work, but is left in just in case. When downloading, keep the "Tyrant.exe" program file in a separate folder from your CT-X build of the program, since the files have the same name.

 

The "Wavetable" parameter that Alex was asking about is at Byte Locations 066h - 0x67h (Highlighted in the screenshot below). Also, for people with a MZ-X keyboard who wish to play around with this, it might be interesting to try changing the "Timbre" byte (location 06Bh, also highlighted) - for CT-X it's limited to values 0, 2, 4, 6 (Melody, Drum, Piano, Versatile respectively). On MZ-X there may be other possibilities (Hex-Layer??) which you can get by typing in a hexadecimal value - I'm not sure which are the values to use though so it could take some experimenting.

 

 

Screenshot:

[Just Alex]

I'm very supermegabusy these days, so haven't tried it yet. I only tried midi connection and it of course does not work

Will try other features later and let you know.

 

What is interesting btw - on MZ-X, you can have channels 9 and 10 play any instrument, not only drums. But when such .AC7 file is used on any CT-X series, you will hear drums instead of say, piano. So what if, using this tone tyrant software, create such "drum" sound, that will be actually some other instrument, say, piano sound, so you can use it on 9 and 10 channels in AC7 file?

 

[mrmr9494]

Thanks for the feedback ..... even if just it's not working  .  (Although not a surprise about MIDI  ..  ).

 

Regarding your idea about the drums in AC7 rhythms, it probably won't work because CT-X just considers all User Tones to not be drums. What are wishing to achieve? If you just want to get channels 11-16 to behave "drum-like" (i.e. without the transposition function, which Casio calls "Chord Sync") then there's a way to do that.... let me know if you want more details.

[Just Alex]

Will try everything today and let you know

Regarding non drum instruments on channels 9 and 10. 

I created such style on MZ-X, but on CT-X it plays drums, where it should play piano.

 

Why we might need this?

There are a plenty of Yamaha styles, that have extra chord track on channel 9, for better sound. For CT-X, we have to drop that extra track, which is sad...

 

[Cușlea_FM]

On 4/30/2022 at 12:04 PM, mrmr9494 said:

 

@Doar Alex, s-ar putea să vă puteți rezolva problema folosind editorul de sunet integrat CT-X5000 și reducând „ Rel. Time ”.

 

Ceea ce descrii este învelișul sunetului, iar în ToneTyrant i se dă numele de „Gain Envelope (Sound A)”. L-am arătat mai jos. Decăderea sunetului atunci când tasta este ținută apăsată este guvernată de „ Timpul de atac 3 ”, iar când tasta este eliberată este „ Timpul de eliberare 1 ”. CT-X5000 vă permite să schimbați Release Time 1 în editorul de bord, dar să schimbați Attack Time 3 sau oricare dintre ceilalți parametri atunci aveți nevoie de un software precum ToneTyrant.

 

 

 

I started programming the CT-X5000 using ToneTyrant and I'm amazed at the possibilities that this little software offers for editing the sound of wonderful AiX Sound Engine Source, but I have a few curiosities...

I know that a synth programmation is mainly done by the "feeling" and not in a cartesian way, labelling the exact values of different parameters. But I'm a perfectionist, and, in addition to feeling, I like to know the exact values of the parameters I'm editing.

Therefore, knowing that the ADR envelopes are time parameters, and their value are normally expressed in milliseconds, does anyone know what is the milliseconds equivalent of the interval range represented in the Gain Envelope section as values between 0-1023 for Attack time 1, Attack time 2, Attack time 3, Attack time 4, and respectively, Release time 1 and Release time 2 ? 

For example, in the situation presented by "mrmr9494" in his post that I quoted above, the Release time 1 parameter has a value of 456. What is the equivalent of this value in milliseconds ?

Accurate knowledge of ADR envelopes values in milliseconds is very important for any CT-X programmer for be able to determine precisely when a particular envelope starts and ends. I can use a mentonome, set to the identical BPM Tempo and specific Time Signatures of the Accompaniment Rhythm for that I'm creating the tone, and thus, aurally, approximate the duration time of each individual envelope. But, that means a lot of time and extreme attention to perform a thorough programming. It would be much easier if I knew the value in milliseconds of these envelope parameters...

 

P.S. Thanks and congratulations to the programmers who created the ToneTyrant software !!! 🙏

Edited April 20, 2023 by Cuslea_FM

[Just Alex]

Well, MZ-X series have graphical editor of all these settings built-in into keyboard, but it also do not provide any real time related information. So this is not an issue of Tone Tyrant, but an issue of casio synth engine itself.

 

P.S. Having GUI for Tone Tyrant would be great, I believe.

[Just Alex]

Oh and by the way, I tried Tone Tyrant on MZ-X and it works fine - Now I can select a sample waveform with it for normal sounds too, not only for hex layer sounds, as MZ-X built-in tone editor allows!

Thank you, author, once again!

 

[Cușlea_FM]

On 4/21/2023 at 6:27 AM, Just Alex said:

Well, MZ-X series have graphical editor of all these settings built-in into keyboard, but it also do not provide any real time related information. So this is not an issue of Tone Tyrant, but an issue of casio synth engine itself.

 

P.S. Having GUI for Tone Tyrant would be great, I believe.

Yes, you are right, I like the MZ-X series graphical editor built-in into keyboard, but these also display the Amp parameters in units between -64 to +64, and not in milliseconds. Anyway, as sonority, I prefer the AiX Sound Engine of CT-X series more than the MXi Sound Engine of MZ-X series. Unfortunately, Casio did not implement also for CT-X series the Hex Layer function, the Chord & Phrase Pads, and other interesting features that the MZ-X series has.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Cuslea_FM

[Just Alex]

Yes, CT-X has far better DSP than MZ-X.

If I were Casio, I would make something like CT-X3100, in which all these "world" sounds and styles should be removed, and extra memory used for better quality samples of common instruments, say pianos and strings. MZ-X has very nice pianos and strings, compared to CT-X.

[Cușlea_FM]

14 hours ago, Cuslea_FM said:

Yes, you are right, I like the MZ-X series graphical editor built-in into keyboard, but these also display the Amp parameters in units between -64 to +64, and not in milliseconds. Anyway, as sonority, I prefer the AiX Sound Engine of CT-X series more than the MXi Sound Engine of MZ-X series. Unfortunately, Casio did not implement also for CT-X series the Hex Layer function, the Chord & Phrase Pads, and other interesting features that the MZ-X series has.

And by the way, if Casio wants to give checkmate to the competition, the next arranger keyboard should have : AiX Sound Engine plus a little sampler, Hex Layer, Chord & Phrase Pads (but these Pads must be something like XotoPad https://feelyoursound.com/xotopad/  positioned on the bottom center of the keyboard interface, so that it can be operated with both left or right hands), and the Strumm Up & Down function found on Arturia KeyStep 37 MIDI Controller, or maybe better something like 4Pockets MIDI Strummer IOS App https://apps.apple.com/de/app/midi-strummer-auv3-plugin/id1532229404

 

And the ADR Envelopes values in milliseconds... 😜

Edited April 22, 2023 by Cuslea_FM

[Just Alex]

No there will be no such keyboard.

All forces are into singing chipmunks

[Just Alex]

I did some further experiments in this field. While offset 066H has definitely impact on sound type, it is not in direct relation with actual sample I guess.

I took some preset sound (pwm saw or something like that), and according to tone tyrrant, it uses sound #141 - but when I go to hex layer edit mode, sound #141 is pipe organ - definitely not the one I need. Also, editing these bytes produces very strange and interesting sounds - like a sound sweeping from deep sub bass to ultrasonic, but with flat envelope and filter

 

 

[mrmr9494]

Interesting. Could you possibly try samples #140 and #142? - there are "off-by-one" situations through a lot of the Casio GUIs.

[Cușlea_FM]

Hello everybody ! I'm back with a new post, because sometimes I have a problem running Tone Tyrant.

 

I get the message... :

 

"An unhandled exception occurred. Press "Abort" to terminate the program, "Retry" to exit the program normally and "Ignore" to try to continue."

 

...and I must to close and reopen Tone Tyrant to can continue editing.

 

I use a convertible Tablet/Laptop Lenovo ideapad MIIX 510-121SK Model 8001 ~ CPU Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-6200U @ 2.30GHz 2.40 GHz, RAM 8,00 GB ~ Windows 10 Pro N 64-bit.

 

Is anyone else facing this problem, and is there any solution tot fix it ?

[mrmr9494]

Hi Cuslea, Here's a few things to try:

 

1. Does it start at all? If so, could you go to Help > About and check that you're running the latest version. It should look like this, the important bits being "v2.2.2" and "Windows 64-bit":

 

 

 

2. Do you see a file called "tyrant.cfg"? If so, delete that file -- maybe it's got corrupted somehow -- and try again.

3. Last resort is to delete everything and download again. The latest version is here https://github.com/michgz/tonetyrant/releases/tag/v2.2.2f and is called "tyrant.exe".

 

 

Keep in touch with how you get on.

[Cușlea_FM]

On 5/15/2023 at 8:40 PM, mrmr9494 said:

Hi Cuslea, Here's a few things to try:

 

1. Does it start at all? If so, could you go to Help > About and check that you're running the latest version. It should look like this, the important bits being "v2.2.2" and "Windows 64-bit":

 

 

 

2. Do you see a file called "tyrant.cfg"? If so, delete that file -- maybe it's got corrupted somehow -- and try again.

3. Last resort is to delete everything and download again. The latest version is here https://github.com/michgz/tonetyrant/releases/tag/v2.2.2f and is called "tyrant.exe".

 

 

Keep in touch with how you get on.

Hi "mrmr9494". Thank you for the suggestions. Problem solved. I deleted, downloaded, and reinstalled Tone Tyrant. Now everything works perfectly.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Cuslea_FM

[Shaunaflynn]

On 5/15/2022 at 11:50 PM, mrmr9494 said:

 

Sure, absolutely that's possible. Use "Attack Time 3" to control it, although you might need to play around with some of the levels to get the sound you want.

 

The AiX chip uses a 6-stage envelope which gives you a lot of control over the possible sound. What you're talking about Alex I think is the "Hold" level, which the level of the sound if the key is held down for a long time. A violin sound for example has a high "Hold" level (the sound continues indefinitely), compared with a celesta where the sound ends almost immediately whether the key is held or not (i.e it's "hold" level is low). The CTX allow full control over all of this, plus a lot more.

It's interesting how the "Hold" level affects the sustain of different instruments. Having full control over this on the CTX sounds like it would really help in shaping the sound to match what you're aiming for.