PX-S3000 how to select programs via MIDI for live performance?

[chrisbc]

Hi folks, I have invested in a PS-X3000 and am really enjoying the sounds and the playing experience. Now I want to integrate this instrument into a live setup with other midi hardware and soft-synths, so I really need remote selection of sounds via standard MIDI  (i.e.using  Bank Select and Program Change messages). 

 

Basically I want to play the keyboard in 'local' mode where the instrument keyboard plays the onboard sounds, AND I want to select those onboard sounds by receiving midi messages from my midi patch manager (mididings, Bitwig or similar) running on my MAC (over USB Midi).

 

When I try this the main 'local' voice and the display don't change, however the program change IS effective for incoming midi notes, so I know the messages are getting through.

 

So I can send PC and MIDI notes to the sound engine, but I can't alter the local setting via MIDI?? This doesn't seem right - I must be missing something!

 

BTW It'd be really helpful to see some  high-level description of the instruments MIDI architecture and how this relates to the onboard sound engine. I'm sure it exists somewhere?

 

 

 

 

[Donkeys]

I would like to do something like that too.  I'm starting with a new band will need to program a wide variety of splits and layers into registrations.  It would be helpful if I could change banks and areas from an external device so that I could give the registrations names.  It's a convoluted solution to make up for the fact registrations can't be named within the S3000.  I strongly recommend Casio do a software update to add this feature to either the S3000 or the app.

[Brad Saucier]

Which channel were you testing this through?

[chrisbc]

Hi Brad, I'm sending to the PX on on MIDI channel 1. My PX is set to midi channel 1, and local control is 'ON'.  If I send note messages on this channel they'll sound with the desired voice, but the PX keyboard is still playing the voice selected manually. There's a lot of latency in the MIDI messages too, which I've yet to look into.

[Brad Saucier]

Thanks for confirming that. So here is what I've come up with.  The MIDI input on the PX-S3000 is working similarly to the CTX series keyboards. These models have a dedicated 16-part sound engine for MIDI input.  This allows it to be used simultaneously as a sound module for MIDI and as a performance keyboard, without the two interfering with one another.  16 parts are controlled by the keyboard and another 16 parts are controlled by MIDI IN.  On some of Casio's higher priced models liked PX-560 and MZX series arrangers, it's possible to reroute MIDI input to any of the internal sound engine "ports". Unfortunately in the CT-X series and PX-S series, the ability to do that is not there.  So to summarize, MIDI IN won't be able to address the same part of the sound engine that the keyboard is using.

 

Now a possible workaround to do what you want, it may be possible to use computer software to loop back MIDI output on the PX-S3000 to MIDI input, then turn off local control on the keyboard.  This would basically make the keyboard control that second sound engine as if it's still using the first one.  I don't know if you can configure all of your program changes and do the loop back all in one shot, but it's an idea worth throwing out there.  

[chrisbc]

Hi Brad, I'm not sure if this is the official support channel, but it's the only one I could find, so thanks very much for your help!

 

Yep I'd thought of the loopback workaround idea too and have tried it out briefly. I can do this easily, but I'm not keen because:

 a) it's a much more fragile setup

 b) I've noticed a lot of latency in the Casio USB MIDI, it sounds to me like something like a slapback echo (between the local voice and the loopback one) , so I guess at least 40ms delay is involved. Of course that could be my computer setup too, but I haven't noticed this much on other gear. 

 

I've been using MIDI gear since the early 80s: DX7, TX7, RX11 Korg EX8000, Roland D50, Oberheim Matrix 6 etc. Even a Casio CZ synth  (a CZ-1 I think). I think all these instruments supported program change over MIDI  so I'm somewhat amazed that it's missing here. It seems like PX-S3000 is just not intended for the live midi environment, which is a shame as it is such a nice board (keybed feel, size and good onboard sounds ). I'd love to trial a firmware hack if Casio engineers could furnish it  

Kind regards, Chris

[chrisbc]

13 hours ago, Donkeys said:

I would like to do something like that too.  I'm starting with a new band will need to program a wide variety of splits and layers into registrations.  It would be helpful if I could change banks and areas from an external device so that I could give the registrations names.  It's a convoluted solution to make up for the fact registrations can't be named within the S3000.  I strongly recommend Casio do a software update to add this feature to either the S3000 or the app.

 

Yes, I agree that naming registrations (patches) would be useful too, but it's not what's critical for me. I simply want to 'call up' these registrations, or any of the 700 patches, using standard MIDI control messages. When I 'call up' a patch on the PSX it should a) update the display and b) play the selected sound.  

 

I use sounds from different synths for different songs, but I change patches from one place  -  a Novation SL49 MkII controller.  On my computer I use Bitwig and/or mididings as the patch manager/mixer for all my hardware and software synths.  

 

For now I'll have to manually adjust the Casio, which is pretty tragic and time consuming. I suppose  I'll need to set up all my registrations in order and set up a footswitch too. Not ideal - I'm pretty sure I'll stuff this up in the heat of the moment .

[Brad Saucier]

Chris, you're basically just running into some of the limitations of the PX-S3000.  What you want to do with tone selection via MIDI is easy on the PX-5S and PX-560.  In the case of the PX-5S, you can also call up registrations (stage settings) via MIDI.  PX-S3000 is great as a standalone performance instrument, plus the use of the Chordana Play for Piano app allows easier control from a touch screen.  It's worth a shot to try the app. It may be a better use for the USB MIDI connection.  

[chrisbc]

12 minutes ago, Brad Saucier said:

Chris, you're basically just running into some of the limitations of the PX-S3000.  What you want to do with tone selection via MIDI is easy on the PX-5S and PX-560.  In the case of the PX-5S, you can also call up registrations (stage settings) via MIDI.  PX-S3000 is great as a standalone performance instrument, plus the use of the Chordana Play for Piano app allows easier control from a touch screen.  It's worth a shot to try the app. It may be a better use for the USB MIDI connection.  

 

Hi Brad, I'm grateful for your speedy feedback - thanks.

 

Sadly it doesn't cheer me up to hear that I should have bought a different model    - especially as I thought this model superseded those others (obviously not). I also checked the product manuals before I bought, and it seemed there was a standard MIDI implementation & Mike Martins' demos and forum posts made me think this had more to offer than just the standalone instrument, so that's quite disappointing to hear. I really wish that limitations/features like this were explained in the casio product info. 

 

BTW there is a swag of MIDI output on channels 1,2 & 3 when I select a new registration. This leads me to think that there's a lot of undocumented functionality in this thing, and perhaps I could harness this somehow? ( I'd be so grateful for something that works   )

 

I'll try Chordana Play again but I'm not sure it'll make my life easier in this scenario. 

 

 

Kind regards, Chris

 

[Jokeyman123]

post removed.

[Brad Saucier]

Chris, I'll keep you posted if I find out anything that can help you.  The PX-S3000 is still pretty new and we're learning new things about it all the time.  These new models are more complex than they appear on the surface.  It's entirely possible I overlooked something.  

[chrisbc]

UPDATE:  I have experimented some more with the loopback idea, and while not ideal it could be workable. MIDI latency (delay) is there but it's not as bad as I indicated above. I'll post some metrics later, but it looks like it's more like 5-10 ms than 40ms+.

 

Brad, any idea how we get some concrete info about this MIDI implementation? To begin with a block diagram and some explanation of the overall design and intended uses would be so helpful.

 

And specifically, if we can find out :

 a) is it possible to select stored registration patches using MIDI and/or

 b) if it's possible to send the registration MIDI messages (the 'swag I mentioned earlier, back into the PX to replicate these patches? 

 

 

I need one of these options to work so I can use loopback and my own registrations live with MIDI patch management.

 

Cheers Chris

 

[Brad Saucier]

The Chordana app can select registrations via MIDI.  That's the only way I know how to do it.

 

[chrisbc]

Interesting - if Chordana app is using MIDI protocol alone, then anything it does can be done by any MIDI patch manager. It'd be great to get a full specification of that implementation! 

[Rene K]

I read this post with much interest. I found by using the onsong midi learn function that a bunch of sysex is outputted on selecting a registration setting, together with control changes on many channels. And interestingly always the same program change: 33

 

about the chordana app: it could be using USB midi, but also a propriety side channel. Still I hope RPN or NRPN is what thy are using.

 

my use case is where onsong controls all the settings of the PX-S3000. Best this i done without the use of the registration memory, but if it selects a registration mem, that is fine too.

[KONSTANTINOS]

What about the patch scripts?

I can select patches in Reaper after I import them.

It's always there after that.

[Moehre]

@KONSTANTINOS: What do you mean with "patch scripts" ?

 

I am using SetListmaker on my IPad for all my MIDI gear but if it is not possible to change the registrations via midi I'll have to send my PX-S3000 back and look for another keyboard to use 😕

[djdisbro]

How do you do this, I think I've been

On 7/22/2019 at 7:54 PM, Brad Saucier said:

The Chordana app can select registrations via MIDI.  That's the only way I know how to do it.

 

 

Where can this be found? I think I've been through every button and screen and can't find anything regarding registrations. 

[Rod Tompkins]

30 minutes ago, djdisbro said:

How do you do this, I think I've been

 

Where can this be found? I think I've been through every button and screen and can't find anything regarding registrations. 

You can't find it because it's not there. It would be an awesome feature, but you can't select registrations in your PX-S3000 via the Chordana app. That would be a great feature!

[Brad Saucier]

Sorry about that, I actually meant the 4 setups that can be saved within the app itself, rather than registrations on the keyboard.  I think it's a good clue that registrations on the keyboard can't be selected by MIDI if Casio's app can't do it.  Maybe I'm wrong and they'll be able to update it for that, but I wouldn't be waiting for it.  I think it's unlikely this would happen.  

[Terry]

I love the feel and sounds of my Privia s3000 but gutted to hear I can’t change registrations via on song or even their own app etc!

the Chordana app could really help here but it seems like an app that’s been made just to say that they have one rather than being able to control

all aspects of the keyboard.

So much real estate on the iPad not used and lots of switching from function to function, come on Casio don’t make the lightest 88 on the market and then not support the people who gig!

[Admagination]

I'm also finding this lack of DAW to 3000 MIDI program changing a big disappointment.  In the heat of a gig, as cool as the touch controls look, they are way too easy to bugger up.  Especially when I've had to build registrations in order to get real time control (via the knobs being assigned via DSP) like rotary FX for the organs.  Now I have to use the function feature to scroll down to "REG" and then hit the second button (Stored registration 1/1) to call up a commonly used organ in my sets.  Then before I go back to the other sounds, I have to make sure "Function" is back in "Tone" mode.  I could make all my commonly used sounds registrations, then I would have to use the Function select, but now we're back to MIDI issues and registration naming.

I've been gigging with MIDI since 1988 with the Yamaha QX-1 (still a marvelous piece of gear) and had 3 keyboards stacked in front of me.  As soon as a song started, I could instantly see the keyboards change.  Along with having to mix from stage, emcee the band, play keyboard or horn and sing, not having to select patches was a godsend.

 

Moving to the PX-5S, I lose the speakers which was a nice touch on the 3000.  I'm guessing the Roland RD-88 is the next choice, but I also lose the great gig bag for the Casio.

Grrrr

Tom

   

[Admagination]

BTW.  I use MIDIOX for my MIDI activity program.  When I select a patch from the face of the PX-S3000 it shows a very typical data stream for program changes.  Selecting a registration from the keyboard, it too shows the data stream, but now with all the DSP settings and other sysex.

When I record a program change into sonar, my DAW, again it shows typical patch change data, but playing it back, the 3000 ignores it.  It's amazing this has not been addressed

Before I send this unit back, is there any hope on the horizon?

 

Thanks,

Tom

[Brad Saucier]

39 minutes ago, Admagination said:

When I record a program change into sonar, my DAW, again it shows typical patch change data, but playing it back, the 3000 ignores it. 

 

I'm not sure why it would be ignoring patch change data.  Have you double checked your configuration?  Casio even provides patch scripts for several DAWs to use with the PX-S3000.  https://support.casio.com/en/support/download.php?cid=008&pid=2368

[Glen Mann]

This is somewhat off topic from the OP.

 

By using Reaper (with no special support from Casio), the ReaControlMidi plugin, and a simple text file contaiing the program change data for the voices loaded into the plugin, I can change the voice/patch to be played by MIDI note data sent to the PX-S3000. Of course, we already know that the keybed on the PX-S3000 plays whatever voice is selected on the touch panel controls and not the voice selected through MIDI. But I've found that the latency experienced setting local control OFF, and sending the keybed notes through the PC and back to the PX-S3000 is negligible. Annoying, but for studio use, it's a better approach than touch surfing the PX-S3000 control panel to hunt for some voice.

 

---------------------------------

Edit: What follows here is incorrect. It turns out that I cannot (yet) combine voices from arbitrary banks into favorites. I gotta think it's doable, but it turns out I got "lucky" with my voice choices, but further experimentation shows I was wrong. Sorry about that.

 

And, for me an even greater benefit is being able to arbitrarily create groups of voices, from any bank, using whatever names I want. For example I could have my Smooth Jazz favorite voices in a group, pianos (any mix of GM, acoustic, and electric), an Orchestra group (with as few or as many voices as I want) etc etc etc and avoid both voice-hunting and registrations. So far I'm using the mouse to select these groups and voices, but I'm sure any control surface could be used, or custom (computer) keyboard shortcuts, etc.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Glen Mann
I misinterpreted my reseults!