PX-S3000 Note "Twang"

[havingfun]

I have detected an unpleasant "resonance" or "twang" on several keys of my PX-S3000:  namely G2, G#2, and A2.  The "twang" only occurs with the sustain pedal depressed, and only occurs on 5 of the 28 piano tones (001, 002, 003, 005, and 006).  Unfortunately, 001 is the Grand Piano Concert tone which is mostly what I play.  The twang becomes audible about 2 seconds after the note is played, and lasts as long as the sustain pedal is depressed and the note plays.  It almost sounds like a slightly flat version of the note played.  It is most evident when the notes are played through the on-board speakers, but can also be plainly heard through my monitor speakers and my good headphone amp/headphone combo.  It is very slightly worse when Hall/Reverb  is set to Berlin Hall, and very slightly better when set to N.Y. Club.   I have turned off all the Accoustic Simulator options (string resonance, damper resonance, etc).  Chorus Type and Brillance have no effect on the twang.

 

To address this twang, I have started to play with the DSP settings but I am skeptical  that this approach will work since the problem is audible on just 3 keys.  I am also a bit overwhelmed with the variety of DSP adjustment options and the difficulty in hearing what they change.   From my first dabble in DSP settings, I think the default DSP for Grand Piano Concert is Mono 1-Band EQ.  There are 5 other equalizer DSPs,  a Tone Control,  Piano Effect,  and Amp Cab DSPs that might be reasonable to substitute for the default and adjust.  By the way, I won't be mixing or recording with this keyboard so there will be no down-stream DAW or other electronics to adjust instead of the keyboard.

 

So is anyone observing the same "twang" on the keys mentioned above?  Is adjusting the DSPs a reasonable approach to improving the sound?  

[kybdsammer]

Any chance you can upload a video or audio of it?

[DaveLang]

Unless you want to collapse the piano stereo image, I would not suggest selecting a mono DSP setting for the pianos. The pianos are stereo samples.

[havingfun]

5 hours ago, kybdsammer said:

Any chance you can upload a video or audio of it?

 

[havingfun]

Video (above) does not seem to include my text.  That is a video of my keyboard with the "twang".  Frankly, the speaker on my phone did not seem to pick up the problem sound very well.  Not sure if you can hear it.

[shep]

Hi, I can hear it , I will try my keyboard.

[havingfun]

6 hours ago, DaveLang said:

Unless you want to collapse the piano stereo image, I would not suggest selecting a mono DSP setting for the pianos. The pianos are stereo samples.

 

Yes, I agree.  Grand Piano Concert has  its default DSP as Mono 1-Band EQ (not sure why),  but it is turned off.  If I turn it on, it collapses the stereo samples to mono (and sounds terrible).

[havingfun]

On 5/22/2019 at 8:38 PM, havingfun said:

I have detected an unpleasant "resonance" or "twang" on several keys of my PX-S3000:  namely G2, G#2, and A2.  The "twang" only occurs with the sustain pedal depressed, and only occurs on 5 of the 28 piano tones (001, 002, 003, 005, and 006).  Unfortunately, 001 is the Grand Piano Concert tone which is mostly what I play.  The twang becomes audible about 2 seconds after the note is played, and lasts as long as the sustain pedal is depressed and the note plays.  It almost sounds like a slightly flat version of the note played.  It is most evident when the notes are played through the on-board speakers, but can also be plainly heard through my monitor speakers and my good headphone amp/headphone combo.  It is very slightly worse when Hall/Reverb  is set to Berlin Hall, and very slightly better when set to N.Y. Club.   I have turned off all the Accoustic Simulator options (string resonance, damper resonance, etc).  Chorus Type and Brillance have no effect on the twang.

 

To address this twang, I have started to play with the DSP settings but I am skeptical  that this approach will work since the problem is audible on just 3 keys.  I am also a bit overwhelmed with the variety of DSP adjustment options and the difficulty in hearing what they change.   From my first dabble in DSP settings, I think the default DSP for Grand Piano Concert is Mono 1-Band EQ.  There are 5 other equalizer DSPs,  a Tone Control,  Piano Effect,  and Amp Cab DSPs that might be reasonable to substitute for the default and adjust.  By the way, I won't be mixing or recording with this keyboard so there will be no down-stream DAW or other electronics to adjust instead of the keyboard.

 

So is anyone observing the same "twang" on the keys mentioned above?  Is adjusting the DSPs a reasonable approach to improving the sound?  

 

I raised the issue of note "twang" a few days back (see above).  I should emphasize that it is a peculiar sound that occurs a full second or two after specific keys are played and only when the sustain pedal is depressed - so maybe not easy to hear at first.  I have experimented with the Equalizer DSPs but as expected, they broadly change the frequency response of the keyboard but I can't seem to find any settings that reduce the twang on these 3 notes.

 

I see that this topic has had well over 100 views to date but no other PX-S3000 owners have commented on whether they are hearing the problem with their own keyboards.  So is no one else having this problem?   If not, this may strictly be a problem with just one keyboard . . .

[Jokeyman123]

I don't have this PX but I play the PX560 and 350-both those grand piano tones use a stereo DSP stored with the tone, and on both it works as it should-notes pan left and right in the soundfield and has a bit of reverb but not overly so. Many Casio PX tones have a DSP setting programmed as part of the tone itself, but further processing can be added using the separate DSP settings for EQ etc. I am not familiar with the s3000 and how it routes its DSP settings, but I would suspect (and I will study the manual) that you can "add" a DSP effect on top of the existing tone's DSP.  So if you use a monophonic DSP setting, it is probably over-riding or defeating the stereo effect already a part of the Casio grand piano tone. Casio creates several grand piano tone variations (I believe from what I have deduced) by using variations in DSP and EQ settings which are already part of the tone-and these cannot be changed, unless you alter the tone yourself and store as a user tone, and again I can do this with the PX560 and even older 575 but I"m not sure the S3000 can do that without studying the manual myself.  As far as your video-I don't hear what you describe as a "twang" sound. Guess I'd have to play the s3000 myself to hear whether there is a difference in the sounds. If you are using a monophonic DSP setting-what you may be hearing-could be-due to the stereo soundfield being compressed into a monophonic soundfield-2 samples are being "squished" into mono-and this will create a slight out-of-phase effect which might be the twang you hear, and with different pitches, might sound different from key to key. This does sound like my GM piano tones-which are monophonic-and have no stereo effect-and sound pretty peculiar compared to a true stereo grand piano sample. Hope this helps. DSP routing is almost always complicated within keyboards and workstations since you now have what used to be dedicated effects and mixing boards with sends and returns-all in one box. Unless you are pretty good with abstract concepts, it can be a brain bender-you should see what my SY77 looks like for DSP settings, or even my old Equinox-which can route effects separately to the 32-track mixer-and the 16 layers of tones and combis-at the same time, eek! 

[havingfun]

8 hours ago, Jokeyman123 said:

I don't have this PX but I play the PX560 and 350-both those grand piano tones use a stereo DSP stored with the tone, and on both it works as it should-notes pan left and right in the soundfield and has a bit of reverb but not overly so. Many Casio PX tones have a DSP setting programmed as part of the tone itself, but further processing can be added using the separate DSP settings for EQ etc. I am not familiar with the s3000 and how it routes its DSP settings, but I would suspect (and I will study the manual) that you can "add" a DSP effect on top of the existing tone's DSP.  So if you use a monophonic DSP setting, it is probably over-riding or defeating the stereo effect already a part of the Casio grand piano tone. Casio creates several grand piano tone variations (I believe from what I have deduced) by using variations in DSP and EQ settings which are already part of the tone-and these cannot be changed, unless you alter the tone yourself and store as a user tone, and again I can do this with the PX560 and even older 575 but I"m not sure the S3000 can do that without studying the manual myself.  As far as your video-I don't hear what you describe as a "twang" sound. Guess I'd have to play the s3000 myself to hear whether there is a difference in the sounds. If you are using a monophonic DSP setting-what you may be hearing-could be-due to the stereo soundfield being compressed into a monophonic soundfield-2 samples are being "squished" into mono-and this will create a slight out-of-phase effect which might be the twang you hear, and with different pitches, might sound different from key to key. This does sound like my GM piano tones-which are monophonic-and have no stereo effect-and sound pretty peculiar compared to a true stereo grand piano sample. Hope this helps. DSP routing is almost always complicated within keyboards and workstations since you now have what used to be dedicated effects and mixing boards with sends and returns-all in one box. Unless you are pretty good with abstract concepts, it can be a brain bender-you should see what my SY77 looks like for DSP settings, or even my old Equinox-which can route effects separately to the 32-track mixer-and the 16 layers of tones and combis-at the same time, eek! 

 

I appreciate your help, Jokeyman.   I have applied a stereo 3-band equalizer DSP to my keyboard to try to remove the "twang" with no benefit.  The Grand Piano Concert tone has a default monaural 1 band equalizer DSP assigned to it, but Casio has it turned off, so I assume it has no effect on the sound.  (Grand Piano Concert tones are in stereo).  I am guessing that Casio assigned this default DSP just as a place holder, since it makes no sense to transform the tone to monaural.  When I turn it on, it plays all keyboard notes in monaural as expected, and as expected, it sounds bad compared to the stereo version.  If I understand correctly, there are 26 other DSP modules (beyond the 2 mentioned above) that can be assigned in place of the silly default DSP.  It will take a while for me to wade through those to see if any of them reduce the twang I hear.  When one of these is substituted for the default DSP and turned on, it apparently adds some sound effect on top of the basic tones (i.e. post-processing the original samples).  Each of these additional DSPs has parameters that can be adjusted individually.    As far as I can tell, there is no way to adjust the basic tone samples themselves.

 

So to be clear, the Grand Piano Concert tones with twang are in stereo.  And also, they are audible (to me) via the on-board speakers, my monitor speakers, earbuds, and my headphone amp/headphones (with all speakers turned off).  

[Brad Saucier]

Well, if I had something to say here, I would.  I listened to the recordings and don't hear anything unusual.  I think it sounds very authentic to real piano strings resonating as they do.  

[Mike Martin]

I'm not hearing anything unusual.

[Mike Martin]

On 5/23/2019 at 7:10 PM, havingfun said:

 

Yes, I agree.  Grand Piano Concert has  its default DSP as Mono 1-Band EQ (not sure why),  but it is turned off.  If I turn it on, it collapses the stereo samples to mono (and sounds terrible).

 

That is NOT the default EQ.  That is just the first EQ preset that is available if you decide to change it from the "preset TONE" DSP effect. 

[Ewall08530]

I heard some overtones on every note you played but from the video I could not tell the difference between the ones without A, Gb from with.  A, Ab, G.   

I don't have my S-3000 home right now but I admit I have spent very little time Playing Pianos 01, 02 and 03.    I much prefer 04 Stage Piano and 07 Ambient Piano. 

It appears you have not found the twangy overtones in the other pianos. 

 

I would urge you to give them a listen and consider using them while you try to identify what is bugging you in the others on those 3 notes.   I think you could probably use The Bright Grand 02? in a band setting and not have that issue stick out. 

 

I have a question for Mike Martin.  Was the same piano sampled for all of the pianos and was the sampling conducted in the same way?   If so, what makes the 01 Grand sound completely different than the 04 Stage?   

[Mike Martin]

59 minutes ago, Ewall08530 said:

 

I have a question for Mike Martin.  Was the same piano sampled for all of the pianos and was the sampling conducted in the same way?   If so, what makes the 01 Grand sound completely different than the 04 Stage?   

 

It is the same piano sample used for all of the different presets. The big difference in some of the presets is some proprietary technology in our AiR chip in addition to a 512 band stereo EQ that is separate from the user accessible DSP EQ.

[Ewall08530]

Thanks Mike!   This piano is exactly what I needed.  👏🏻

[havingfun]

Here is a second attempt at providing a video of my keyboard "twang".  This time I recorded with my phone close to the left on-board speaker.  I plan to do an audio test of a retailer's PX-S1000 to see if the same problem exists in a second keyboard, but currently their Casio's are out of stock.  

[Ewall08530]

The two notes you find acceptable, B  and   F  both have an overtone pitch (A) start sounding about 2 seconds after being struck.  They other notes A, G# and G have no 

overtones in them.  That's the only discernible difference that I can hear. 

 

[Casiofun]

I think you are hearing the way the strings are reverberating on this piano sample captured when these particular notes were recorded. 

[Mike Martin]

15 hours ago, havingfun said:

Here is a second attempt at providing a video of my keyboard "twang".  This time I recorded with my phone close to the left on-board speaker.  I plan to do an audio test of a retailer's PX-S1000 to see if the same problem exists in a second keyboard, but currently their Casio's are out of stock. 

 

There is nothing wrong with your piano and a PX-S1000 would sound identical in this regard. You're hearing the way the piano sounded when it was recorded, nothing more.  As mentioned some notes produce overtones which are more present than others but that is the nature of the acoustic instrument that was captured.  In other words, if you played the source instrument you'd hear the same thing. The PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 use the same source recordings that Casio has been using in Privia pianos for the last 5+ years. Casio re-engineered these recordings for a more natural decay (and dynamic response with the new engine) among other improvements over previous models. 

[Jokeyman123]

I have listened to this with monitor headsets, several times, with several different headsets-I am not hearing anything that sounds different from key to key. I am hearing a rather realistic resonance between strings as I would on a good grand piano when sustained-a slight slow beating of frequencies-as if 2 piano strings are interacting harmonically-but I am not hearing any marked differences between notes. even on the best grand pianos there can be slight differences in harmonics from note to note, which is what gives the piano its characteristic sound. On lesser digitals-I do not hear this harmonic overtone sound-which is what causes a flatter, less dimensional sound in a digital that is not capable of doing this. if you smack a good acousic or grand-the notes will become slightly brighter-the dynamic response will change the tonal quality, and if you listen carefully, you will hear quite clearly the harmonic interactions between adjacent strings, one of the subtle qualities that make a grand piano. That is all I hear in these examples you've posted. 

[havingfun]

6 hours ago, Mike Martin said:

 

There is nothing wrong with your piano and a PX-S1000 would sound identical in this regard. You're hearing the way the piano sounded when it was recorded, nothing more.  As mentioned some notes produce overtones which are more present than others but that is the nature of the acoustic instrument that was captured.  In other words, if you played the source instrument you'd hear the same thing. The PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 use the same source recordings that Casio has been using in Privia pianos for the last 5+ years. Casio re-engineered these recordings for a more natural decay (and dynamic response with the new engine) among other improvements over previous models. 

 

Mike:  thanks for your response.  It makes sense that what I hear is in the note samples since these specific keys play fine (clean resonances) with all the other  piano tones except the five I noted.  Also, I would expect that a keyboard sound problem would impact more than just 3 keys.  Sadly, the twang or resonance I hear on these 3 keys does not seem to complement the tone of the notes played as do  the many other sympathetic resonances that are audible with other notes.   If I learn any more about this issue, I will report back on this forum. 

[Mike Martin]

54 minutes ago, havingfun said:

 

Also, I would expect that a keyboard sound problem would impact more than just 3 keys. 

 

Havingfun,

Again you're hearing recordings of the actual piano and the way it sounded on the day it was recorded. If you played these keys on that acoustic piano on that day you'd hear the same thing. This is a 9 foot concert grand that is meticulously maintained and prepared for these recordings. It is a snapshot in time. Artists such as Steve Weingart have recorded entire albums and toured the world using Casio's pianos without issue. 

You also wrote: 

On 5/22/2019 at 8:38 PM, havingfun said:

The "twang" only occurs with the sustain pedal depressed

On 5/22/2019 at 8:38 PM, havingfun said:

I have turned off all the Accoustic Simulator options (string resonance, damper resonance, etc).

Casio does not separately record the piano with the pedal down. For a more organic approach the resonances that occur with the pedal is depressed are modeled with Casio's "Acoustic Simulator".  As you know you can adjust the amount of "Damper Resonance" level on your PX-S3000 - including setting it to off. You may wish to give this another try.  You say you've tried this but with those settings disabled there is NO difference in sound with the pedal depressed versus without the pedal depressed.  
 

[havingfun]

11 minutes ago, Mike Martin said:

 

Havingfun,

Again you're hearing recordings of the actual piano and the way it sounded on the day it was recorded. If you played these keys on that acoustic piano on that day you'd hear the same thing. This is a 9 foot concert grand that is meticulously maintained and prepared for these recordings. It is a snapshot in time. Artists such as Steve Weingart have recorded entire albums and toured the world using Casio's pianos without issue. 

You also wrote: 

Casio does not separately record the piano with the pedal down. For a more organic approach the resonances that occur with the pedal is depressed are modeled with Casio's "Acoustic Simulator".  As you know you can adjust the amount of "Damper Resonance" level on your PX-S3000 - including setting it to off. You may wish to give this another try.  You say you've tried this but with those settings disabled there is NO difference in sound with the pedal depressed versus without the pedal depressed.  
 

 

Mike:  With my keyboard, Damper Resonance provides a beautiful "after tone" which sounds almost like a whispery echo in a large room after the key is struck.  This is in addition to the sustained note.  When I turn the Damper Resonance off, the sustain pedal still sustains the note as before, but the whisper is gone.  Neither Damper Resonance on or off effects the unpleasant "twang".  And by the way, all notes on my keyboard sound great with the sustain pedal not depressed, so apparently the samples of the 9 foot concert grand are indeed very good.

 

I feel like I am beating a dead horse here.  No one else is either hearing the sound I hear or if they are, are not annoyed with it.  Setting the Hall Simulator to N.Y. Club helps a little.  I can live with that.  The rest of the Concert Grand notes sound wonderful, particularly when sustained.  Thanks for your patience on this.

[Brooster]

My PX-S3000 is a bit twangy on G#2-A2-A#2-B2 on most of the piano sounds. It is more obvious with sustain pedal depressed but it is still there without the sustain pedal depressed. The light touch settings bring out the twang more.

My Pianoteq is not twangy on those notes.

The PX-S3000 is a very nice piano controller and a very good sounding acoustic pianos on 84 notes and OK sounding on 4 notes.

Pianoteq sounds good on 88 notes.

The Casio PX-S3000 with Pianoteq is a most excellent combo.

Pianoteq usually has a sale in late Summer.